[音乐] 埃隆，我们就直接从，呃，约翰——约翰提出的问题开始吧。我的意思是，你在职业生涯中经常谈到，对年轻时作为企业家和创新者的你来说，来到美国有多么重要，而且你说过，没有其他国家能让你取得今天这样的成就。确实如此。当你审视今天美国的整体环境时，这一点在2020年仍然适用吗？而且，作为一个社会，我们大体上是否做了所有该做的事，来培育那个把你带来的同样环境？是的，嗯，我认为美。

国在创新和培育创业精神方面仍然很出色，所以仍然很出色。我认为我们不应自满，而应该说，好吧，我们怎样才能随着时间推移把它做得更好。我认为我们要，嗯，警惕法规和官僚主义逐渐蔓延。规章制度，呃，是不朽的，如果我们每年不断制定更多规章制度，却不，呃，采取措施废除它们，那么最终我们将什么也做不了。这一点非常重要，而我认为人们没有充分认识到。这就有点像，那个那个那个，温水煮青蛙，你知道，他的那部分不会跳出去，因为每年只会稍微变热一点。嗯，我们应该意识到这一点，我认为州一级尤其如此。是的，嗯，我想谈谈

这个，因为，呃，你在加利福尼亚州已经遇到了一些这种情况，但让我从更广泛的意义上问一下。我的意思是，你从来没有——我的意思是，你一直在与政府合作，现在也和政府做生意，呃，你在不同时候对政府表达过强烈的赞成或反对意见，具体取决于当时的情况。但当你从更广泛意义上的创新视角来思考时，政府的正确角色是什么？比如，政府的角色崇拜是什么，政府应该在哪里成为参与者，在哪里应该放手不管？你心中的理想状态是什么？当然。嗯，很多时候，政府能做的最好的事情就是别挡路。嗯，所以我会说，那是默认做法。嗯，可能是最好的做法。然后，嗯，再往后就是确保，呃，不存在人为的

垄断，确保初创企业有一个联邦层面的发展空间。嗯，因为随着时间推移可能发生的情况是，大公司会俘获监管，它们影响监管者和立法者，使其偏袒，呃，它们自身的处境，然后你就会有一片红杉林，而那些小，呃，小树根本长不起来。所以我们确实希望拥有一种倾向于支持，呃，小公司和初创企业的环境。大公司其实不需要支持，但它们会——它们通常会设法操纵这个体系，建立某种垄断。我们应该对此保持警惕。嗯，你知道，总的来说，就像，我——我认为我们可以考虑，呃，改变我们看待事物的方式，不再说资本主义对共产主义。抱歉

回答得很长，但我认为这有点，嗯，资本主义对共产主义，并且更多地从反馈回路的角度来思考。那么，是——是一个特定组织，它是否给一个组织、州长，或者——或者一个商业组织，为客户提供了良好的反馈回路？嗯，无论客户是全体人民，还是，你知道，不论客户是谁。如果你面对的是双头垄断或寡头垄断，它们通常会对客户反应迟钝。嗯，如果它们是垄断企业，它们对客户的反应会最迟钝。而我认为，政府往往最不善于回应作为客户的人民，原因在于它是一个无法破产，或者通常无法破产的垄断组织。所以并不存在——并不真正存在一个，一个，一个

净化政府的过程，除非发生灾难。嗯，所以我的意思是，如果你想抱怨机动车管理局，那还有什么——还有什么替代选择？是的，这里面有几件事需要展开说。首先，你谈到红杉主宰了，呃，空气，而小公司面临挑战时，有些人会认为这就是当今硅谷的状况。我觉得你刚才的回答不是这个意思，但这是你眼中当今硅谷的状况吗？嗯，我认为这不是硅谷的问题，它只是——这是一个普遍的，呃，问题。嗯，我的意思是，比如说，你知道，有多少——有多少家糖果公司？就像，你知道，大型糖果业已经整合成了大约3家公司之类的。嗯，而且它们还拥有所有的狗粮和婴儿

食品。那么，上一次出现什么好糖果，呃，是在什么时候？你知道，催生新糖果棒的强制性因素是什么？我已经很久没见过新的了。嗯，所以，你知道，我们得留意这种，像是，整合。嗯，它最终会导致对终端客户的响应能力降低。而且，嗯，就像我说的，你可以认为，在极限情况下，政府只不过是最大的公司。是的，所以有些人——我认为，把政府和某种意义上的产业视为相互独立，是一种错误的二分法。政府只不过是极限情况下的公司。它是拥有垄断权的终极合作组织。所以，但随后，当你越来越接近，比如建立垄断时，反馈回路就会变弱，对客户的响应也会降低。那就是，那就是，那就是你会得到某种

无法最大化人们幸福的东西，而这应该是我们的总体目标。昨晚在这场活动中，有几个人，呃，即将加入大政府，是当选总统的几名高级顾问。显然，他们非常重视的事情之一，是某种新的国家产业政策，姑且找不到更好的说法。他们谈到要在研发和培育创新上投入更多，基本上就是政府大笔支出。嗯，这种国家产业政策是个好主意吗？在你看来，这是目前对政府的一种良好运用吗？如果是，你会把这种努力集中在哪里？嗯，政府的责任是制定游戏规则，然后确保这些规则得到适当执行，

有点像场上的裁判。你知道，就像，像是，嗯，你知道，橄榄球之类的。你有规则，有裁判，你得确保规则是正确的规则，而且裁判在执行规则。那是——那是政府的一项重要职责，呃，确保规则正确，而且激励机制，呃，确实是我们希望它们成为的样子，以便像我说的，让人民未来的长期幸福最大化。嗯，我认为政府做得不太好的地方，是它们不仅想当场上的裁判，还想成为场上的球员。呃，这不会——不会带来良好的局面。挑选赢家和输家之类的事情。我的意思是，实际上政府

的激励机制确实会虚假地，或者确实会偏袒，比如你会说，游戏规则是什么。嗯，我不知道，这显然是一个不完美的类比，但我——我确实认为这是一个相当不错的类比。嗯，你——你希望政府谨慎地专注于确保游戏规则确实是我们希望的样子，确保我们正在废除所有规则，这非常重要，但目前并没有发生。嗯，而且规则要得到执行，从而让公司有，呃，合乎道德的行为。嗯，是的。嗯，有时候会存在未定价的外部性，比如海洋和大气吸纳CO2的容量。因此，如果这没有被有效计入价格，那么产业中就可能出现某些行为，产业行为并不——我们认为这可能对

环境不利，或者不利于地球的未来。大多数时候，我的意思是，只要定价正确，你就会看到私营产业采取正确的行为。嗯，所以，你知道，这就是一个例子：如果我们有效地为碳定价，就会看到正确的行为，然后政府不需要试图挑选技术上的赢家和输家。它们只需激励结果。我认为，政府专注于激励结果，而不是路径，是极其重要的。嗯，你提到了加利福尼亚州，我不得不问。嗯，你——你现在人在得克萨斯州，而今年外界一直有所猜测，并且你也直言表达了对加利福尼亚州一些事情的不满。你真的——你要搬迁了吗？这正在发生吗？你能不能稍微谈谈，呃，是什么一直在困扰

你，让你今年对加利福尼亚州如此不满，因为你——因为你提到了它？当然。嗯，首先，呃，Tesla和SpaceX显然在加利福尼亚州拥有庞大的业务。事实上，值得注意的是，Tesla是最后一家仍在加利福尼亚州生产汽车的汽车公司。呃，SpaceX是最大的——最后一家仍在加利福尼亚州进行大规模制造的航空航天公司。所以，加利福尼亚州过去有超过12家汽车工厂，而加利福尼亚州过去是航空航天制造业的中心。我的公司是剩下的最后2家，我想强调这一点。所以这是一个非常重要的要点。嗯，就我自己而言，是的，我——我已经搬到了得克萨斯州。嗯，我们正在得克萨斯州南部开展星舰研发，呃，我现在就在那里。我们希望能在今天晚些时候——晚些时候进行一次发射，而且

然后我们正在得克萨斯州奥斯汀郊外大规模开发一座工厂，但你确实搬了过去，可是为什么，为什么你，为什么你去了那里？这完全是个人决定吗，还是说，这在一定程度上其实是出于公司环境方面的决定，涉及总部，是这样吗？嗯，我是说，就我而言，我现在正在推进的2件最大的事情，嗯，是得克萨斯州南部的星舰开发，这件事已经完成了，这是大约5年前就启动的，嗯，然后是那座，那座，那座新的大型美国……

……工厂，是为——为Tesla建的，叫作得州超级工厂，呃，就在奥斯汀附近。所以这就是2个大项目，因此这些项目必然，嗯，驱使我把时间用在这里。嗯，是的，然后Tesla目前另一个大项目是柏林超级工厂。所以我之前在柏林，我花了相当多时间在柏林为此工作，嗯，而且，嗯，是的，我认为，你知道，嗯，加利福尼亚州很棒，所以加利福尼亚州确实有很多非常棒的地方。它是全国最大的经济体，人口数量最多。嗯，我确实认为，呃，当……确实会发生一些事情，你知道，如果用某种运动队来类比，就像一支球队赢得太久，他们确实往往会变得有点自满、有点觉得理所当然，然后……

他们不再赢得冠军了，所以加利福尼亚已经赢了很长时间，嗯，我觉得他们有点把这些视为理所当然了。是的，让我们再多谈一点美国企业整体的创新。我的意思是，创新始终是你的核心特质，是你思考自己的公司以及自己在美国企业高管层中所扮演角色的方式。总体而言，我们的公司是否，呃，在促进、发展和创新，而美国企业界的领导者们——这次通话中就有很多——或者说，我们现在是否像可能做到的那样，呃，或者像需要的那样重视创新？你怎么看？嗯，我，我认为存在这种，这种创新，但还有就是，嗯，我们，嗯，美国企业的首席执行官们是否足够专注于产品改进，我

我认为答案是否定的，嗯，而且总的来说，我的建议，呃，或者说我的推荐其实是，少花些时间在财务上，少花些时间在会议室里，少花些时间在 PowerPoint 上，多花些时间努力让你的产品尽可能出色。嗯，特别是从这一点来说，为什么，为什么为什么为什么会这样？是因为，呃，董事会或股东过于关注财务和回报，没有充分认识到产品才是价值的核心吗？是因为培养了某种特定的技能吗？嗯，为什么会这样？为什么为什么为什么这在高管层是个问题？我觉得可能有太多 MBA 在经营公司。嗯，美国的 MBA 化，我认为可能不是什么太好的事。嗯，应该更加关注产品，

服务本身，少花些时间开董事会，少花些时间研究财务数据。财务数据是随之而来的结果。就像你说的，公司究竟有什么意义，为什么甚至要有公司？公司就像是人的集合，呃，聚集到一起创造一种产品或服务，并交付那种产品给服务，而有时人们会忽视这一点。公司本身没有价值，它的价值仅取决于它能否有效地配置资源，创造出价值高于投入成本的商品和服务。我们称为利润的这个东西，呃，只是，只是应该仅仅意味着，随着时间推移，产出的价值高于投入，而且，而且它更多地反映的是产品的质量，而不是，呃，所以，所以，

产品好，利润大概就会随之而来，而不是利润被称作与问题相对，而且，是的，有时人们算是把顺序弄反了。你知道，如果人们算是从财务层面获得激励结构，我不，我只是，我只是真诚地建议每一位听众，呃，少花些时间待在会议室里，少花些时间做，做，做 PowerPoint 演示，少花些时间看电子表格，多花些时间在工厂车间，多花些时间与客户相处。显然，外面已经有很多人在这样做，但我只是想，我只是敦促人们说，比如，嘿，退一步想一想，你的产品是否已经做到它所能达到的那样出色？可能没有。嗯，你能做些什么让它，让它变得很棒？嗯，还有你，

知道，这，这是一种，感觉就像，想想创新，或许它必须是，比如突破性创新。我认为它不一定非得是突破性的创新，就只是，比如，比如你知道，只要让你的产品变得更好。这才是真正重要的事。那种产品思维，也就是你所描述的那种，是可以学会的吗？是可以教授的吗？还是说，一个人必须具备某种与生俱来的要素，才能真正把它做好？我的意思是，并不是每个人都在以你的规模进行大量创新或思考，但，但是你，你，嗨，你招聘时会寻找有创新精神的人。这是相当容易，容易学会的东西吗？还是成功的人身上存在某种不平等？我认为这是可以学会的。我的意思是，第一步会是，

去尝试，还有任何，你尝试过吗？如果你尝试过，你努力尝试了吗？如果你没有努力尝试，那就努力尝试。我认为这是可以学会的。嗯，它不是什么神秘的东西，基本上就是，要对你制造的产品、所提供的服务做一个绝对的完美主义者。嗯，从各个方面寻求负面反馈，呃，你知道，从客户那里，从，从不是客户的人那里，比如，嘿，好吧，我们能把这个做成什么样，我们怎样才能让它变得更好？嗯，而且你知道，我认为就是这样。这绝对是可以学会的。而且，而且，而且，而且，如果你发现自己花很多时间在获取演示文稿和审阅电子表格上，你就是堵错树了。那是，那是结果，而不是原因。嗯，所以就到工厂车间去，到外面的，

商店里去，与客户交谈，想想什么，什么会是，什么会是你自己很想拥有的。哦，而且你知道，有时我觉得，你知道，我进行过这种对话，那说明过几次，就像是，我们试着想，好吧，我们不喜欢，有时就像是，我们并不喜欢这个产品，但我们认为其他人会喜欢它。你知道，事情其实不是这样运作的。如果你自己都不喜欢它，就别指望其他人会喜欢。[音乐] 现在你正处于一个时刻，我一会儿想谈谈你的公司，但你现在正处于这样一个时刻，两家，尤其是 Tesla 和 SpaceX，目前确实正以很多方式增长。嗯，即使到现在，你也经历了很多起起落落，但，但是，但是从这个角度来看，这是你个人历程中的一个高点。你犯过的最大错误有哪些，

是你从中吸取了教训的？因为你刚才谈到了一点，要愿意把自己置身其中，失败、学习、继续成长。哪些转折点真正让你，你，你说，等一下，这是错的，或者这是错误的一步，无论是对个人还是，还是对公司而言，而且，而且你从中吸取的教训促成了你如今所处的位置？嗯，如果要我列出所有错误，这会是一通非常漫长的电话。嗯，所以多得甚至想不过来。我在想，比如，我能怎么，我能不能以某种方式给它们分类？嗯，我的意思是，其中有些事情就是我刚才提到的，比如，你知道，我建议人们少花些时间待在会议室里，少花些时间获取演示文稿和，和电子表格，而且，就像，一般来说，

情况是这样的：当，当我花太多时间待在会议室里时，通常事情就是在那时出了岔子；而当我去工厂车间花时间，嗯，或者，你知道，真正去使用那些，那些汽车，嗯，思考火箭时，就像，那才是事情变得，变得更好的地方。嗯，但这会不会，这会不会带来某种风险？有些人会担心，这可能会向你的，你的团队传递一种信息，即必须由你亲自参与，事情才能奏效，你不能授权，也不能信任他们。我认为这是让一些[音乐]高管犹豫的一件事。他们试图在展现个人投入和信任下属完成工作之间找到那条界线。所以，是的，我的意思是，你以充满热情、睡在，

工厂车间，但，但是，但是，这对你来说是个顾虑吗，还是你不在乎？这，这对你来说不是问题吗？你是怎么看的？嗯，SpaceX 和 Tesla 有很多有才华的人。嗯，而且我认为士气很，很好。嗯，呃，我当然非常尊重他们，与他们共事是一种荣幸。嗯，而且我发现，如果，如果我，嗯，专注于问题的细节，这不会让他们感觉更好，而是更糟，但又会感觉更好，比如按我的经验，更有活力。嗯，你知道，就像，你知道，想想战争，比如，你希望将军待在某种，比如，你知道，象牙塔里，还是，还是在前线？比如，如果部队看到将军在前线，他们会比认为将军们，

你知道，处在某种安逸的环境中时更加奋勇作战。所以，就像，没人流血，王子待在宫殿里。到那该死的前线去，而且，而且你知道，向他们表明你在乎，而且你不只是待在某个地方的豪华办公室里。嗯，是的，我的意思是，我的豪华办公室现在实际上，是的，是的，嗯，我们快速谈谈 Tesla。嗯，不过 Tesla 和 SpaceX 今天都在扩大规模。事实上，我的意思是，Tesla 的估值，我想昨天触及了6000亿美元。今天你说你要通过股票销售筹集50亿美元。嗯，我认为，而且我认为，在你心里，这些收益真正要做的是帮助你更快扩大规模，被重新投入投资，因为现在正是这样做的时机。这里的计划是这样吗？是的，我的意思是，我，我想有，嗯，你知道，我们正在，

算是在讨论，比如，我们应该筹钱还是不应该筹钱。嗯，这并不是一件100%确定的事。嗯，最后我们想，好吧，我们可以偿还大量债务，提高公司的安全性。嗯，可能是件好事，呃，而且只需要不到百分之一的解决方案，可能说得通。嗯，但我们，你知道，对此既不在这里，也不在那里。我认为这是一件，它可能走向任何一边的事。那么，这笔钱实际上是用来偿还债务的，你今天是这么说的吗？呃，偿还债务，以及，我想，再多准备一点战争资金，或者，你知道，嗯，你知道，钱是什么？钱就是数据库里的一条记录。好，我想考虑几个来自观众的问题。首先，我想转到一个视频问题，呃，这是我们征集的。嗯，呃，如果我们能播放那个，

嗯，你好，我叫凯瑟琳·帕森斯，是科技教育公司 Decoded 的首席执行官。我想知道，机器能够创新吗，还是创新是一种人类与生俱来的能力？是的，我认为，呃，机器会……好吧，我对 AI 的看法，呃，我已经谈过很多。嘿，随着时间推移，我将能够把一切都做得比人类更好。一切。一切都包括，是的。好，呃，埃隆，这里有一个问题。嗯，呃，如果你能有一个非常快、非常快、很简单的问题，如果你可以重新设计美国的整个交通基础设施，它会是什么样子？迈克尔·方丹问道。整个交通基础设施，哇。嗯，我在这里看到缺失的主要东西是，呃，我们需要在城市中走向 3D，以缓解交通拥堵，而且，嗯，我想可能，

做到这一点的最佳方式是用，呃，用隧道。嗯，这听起来，可能听起来有点傻，但你创办的 Boring Company，现在就在研究这个。是的，事实上，多年来，当有人问我，我认为新公司最大的机会是什么时，我一直在说，能不能请谁来建隧道。整整5年我都这么说，却没有人建隧道，所以就像，好吧，我们自己开一家公司，开始建一些隧道。我们的第一条隧道，呃，就要开放了；第一条商业隧道将在拉斯维加斯开放，呃，从会展中心通往拉斯维加斯大道。我想，谁会有机会试用它，并且能够看到，嘿，如果我们在城市里直接转向3D，我们就不必被堵在交通拥堵中了。那些很棒，所以我会推荐

隧道，然后对于长途旅行，你可以使用隧道或管道，但如果你把隧道抽成真空，并且基本上除去空气或大部分空气，你就可以消除，呃，空气摩擦，而且可以，呃，以超音速行驶，呃，并且做到这一点时，我是说，不受，嗯，天气影响，也不需要升至高空或造成任何音爆问题。所以这就是我所说的某种超级高铁，它，它基本上就是在真空管道中的增压电动汽车。嗯，所以我认为这，这会是我们在交通运输领域的演进，那会非常了不起。嗯，而且，嗯，希望其他人也会做，而不只是 The Boring Company。好的，这里有一个问题，呃，埃隆，我是一家私营公司的创始人，一位创始人兼首席执行官，在这场较量中，我看到的变化之一，呃，是人们

试图在政治和社会事务上迫使，呃，公司，呃，你知道，提出要求，不向警方出售产品，或不向政府机构出售产品，Google 还出现了罢工和抗议。你认为这种事情正在对创新产生寒蝉效应，或者将会产生寒蝉效应吗？嗯，很多这种事情都集中在旧金山湾区，我认为旧金山湾区的硅谷对世界的影响力过大了，这是我的看法，而我是以一个大半辈子都生活在加利福尼亚州、主要是在湾区的人的身份这么说的。所以你就像，你就像你的朋友彼得·蒂尔一样，觉得那里变得更令人窒息了，你，你是在表达你同意我的看法。是的，我认为，呃，湾区

在世界上拥有超乎其应有程度的影响力。呃，那么这种情况正在改变吗？疫情正在改变这种情况吗？我的意思是，随着离开现象以及人们离开硅谷，我们是否真的有可能看到其中一些永久分散到乡村地区，现在，呃，在疫情之后？我认为我们会看到硅谷的影响力有所下降，嗯，但社交媒体仍然高度集中在硅谷，所以我认为我们需要警惕思想病毒，就是，你知道，那些通过社交媒体极快传播、可能正确也可能不正确的模因。嗯，而且我们当然希望鼓励健康的对话。呃，所以，你知道，有些人就是想让辩论的一方或另一方闭嘴，我认为我们应该抵制这种做法。是的，我们没

时间了，很遗憾，因为我本来可以聊上1个小时。我的问题我们甚至连一半都没谈到，但感谢你今天抽出时间，很高兴见到你，呃，希望我们以后还能继续交谈，而且听听你在想些什么总是很有意思。所以谢谢你，也祝你目前的项目顺利。好的，谢谢你。谢谢你，埃隆。

[Music] elon let's just start right with uh where where john john posed the question i mean you've spoken often in your career about how important it was for you as a young entrepreneur an innovator to come to america and you've said there's no other country where you could have achieved what you've achieved today definitely when you look at the us today in the landscape would that still apply in 2020 and are we broadly as a society doing everything we should be doing to foster that same environment that brought you yeah well i think u.

s is still great with respect to innovation and fostering entrepreneurship so it's still great i think we don't want to be complacent and we want to say okay how can we make it better over time and i think we want to be um cautious about the the gradual creep of regulations and bureaucracy the rules and regulations uh are immortal and if we keep making more of a year and do not uh do something about uh removing them then eventually we will be able to do nothing this is very important and i think not well appreciate this is just sort of like the the the slow boil of the frog you know his part doesn't jump out because gets just slightly hotter each year um we should be aware of this i think particularly at the state level yeah well i want to talk about

that because uh you've been running into that some in in california but let me ask in a broader sense i mean you've never been i mean you've been working with government you do business with government now uh you've expressed strong feelings about government pro and con at different times depending on the circumstances but when you think through an innovation lens in the broader sense what's the right role for government like what is the role worship government be a player and where should be hands off what's ideal in your mind sure um a lot of the time the best thing that government can do is just get out of the way um and so that i'd say that that's the default um probably best thing to do then um after that would be ensuring that uh there are not artificial

monopolies that that there is a federal ground for startups um and the because what can happen over time is they can get regulatory capture by large companies where they influence the regulators and the legislators to favor uh their their situation and then you have a forest of redwoods and you just can't the the little uh little trees can't grow so we really want to have an environment that that tends to favor uh smaller companies and startups the big companies really don't need the support but they will they will generally try to work the system to establish a monopoly of some kind we should be wary of that um you know in general it's like i i think we we could consider uh changing the way we think of things from say capitalism versus communism i apologize

long answer but i think this is kind of um capitalism versus communism and and think more in terms of feedback loops so is is a given organization does it give an organization governor or or a commercial have good feedback loop for the customer um whether it's the people as a whole or you know where whoever the customers are and if you've got like a duopoly or oligopoly they're generally going to be have a weak uh response to their customer um and if they're monopoly they're going to have the weakest response to the customer and the reason that that government i think is often the worst at responding to the customers being the people is that they're a monopoly that can't go bankrupt or usually cannot go bankrupt so there's not there's not really a a a

cleansing process for a government short of a catastrophe um so i mean if you want to complain about the dmv what's the what's the alternative yeah so a couple things to unpack there first i do want to when you talk about redwoods dominating the uh the air and smaller companies have a challenge some people would hear that as being the situation in silicon valley today i don't think that's what you replied but is that what you see in silicon valley today well i think this is not a silicon valley problem it's just it's a general uh problem um i mean if you look at say you know how many how many candy companies are there like you know big candy is like consolidated into like three companies or something um and they also own all the dog food and the baby

food so it's like when's the last time there was some good candy uh you know what's the forcing function for a new candy bar i haven't seen one in ages um so you know we gotta watch this like consolidation um that uh ends up resulting in lower responsiveness to the end customer and um like i said it's like you can think of like in the limit government is simply the largest corporation yeah so some people i think it's a false dichotomy to look at government and sort of industry as separate government is simply a corporation in the limit it is the ultimate cooperation with the monopoly so but then as you get closer to like set up monopoly as the feedback loop gets weaker and less responsive to the customer that's that's that's where you have something which

does not maximize the happiness of people which should be our objective overall we had a couple of people last night at this event uh who are joining the big administration a couple of the president-elect senior advisors and clearly one of the things heavily on their mind is sort of a new national industrial policy for want of a better term they talked about spending a lot more on research and development and fostering innovation big government spending basically um is is that kind of national industrial policy a good idea is that a good use of government right now in your mind and if it is where would you focus that kind of effort well it's governor's responsibility to establish the rules of the game and then to ensure that those rules are properly enforced

like sort of like the the referees on the field and you know it's like it's just like um you know football or something then you've got the rules you've got the referees you're gonna make sure the rules are the right rules and the referees are enforcing the rules that's a that's an important role for government uh to ensure that the rules are correct and that the incentives uh are what we actually want them to be for like i said the long-term maximum happiness of the people into the future um where i think government does not do a great job is when they want to not just be a referee on the field they want to be a player on the field uh this is not does not end up in a good stage picking winners and losers that kind of thing i mean effectively government

incentives do fake or do favor like you're gonna say like what are the rules of the game um i don't know this is obviously an imperfect analogy but i i do think it is a pretty good one um that you you want the government to be carefully focused on ensuring the rules of the game are what we actually want them to be that we're getting rid of all rules this is very important which is not occurring um and that the the rules are enforced such that we have uh ethical behavior of companies um yeah um now there are times when you have an unpriced externality such as the co2 capacity of the oceans and atmosphere so then if that is not priced in effectively then you can get behavior in industry behavior that does not that that we think is probably not good for

the environment or not good for the future of the planet most of the time i mean provide pricing is correct you will see correct behavior from a private industry um so you know that's like one example where if we effectively price carbon we'll see the right behavior and then the government does not need to try to pick technology winners losers they can simply incent the outcome i think it's incredibly important that government focus on incenting the outcome not the path um you mentioned california i have to ask um are you you're in texas right now and there's been speculation and you've been vocal this year on some of your frustrations in california are you really are you relocating is it happening and can you talk a little bit about uh what's been troubling

you in california uh so much this year since you since you mentioned it sure well first of all uh tesla and spacex obviously have massive operations in california in fact it's worth noting that tesla is the last car company still manufacturing cars in california uh spacex is the large the last aerospace company still doing significant manufacturing california so there used to be over a dozen car plants in california and california used to be the center of aerospace manufacturing my companies are the last two left i want to emphasis so that's a very important point to make um for myself yes i i have moved to texas um we've got the starship development uh here in south texas where i am right now we're hopefully going to do a launch later later today and

then we've got a big factory development just outside of austin for texas but you made the move really but what why why did you why did you go there is that is it all a personal decision or was it it was partly a corporate environment decision really for the headquarters is that well i mean in my case the two biggest things that i've got going on right now um are the starship development in south texas which was done this was set in motion like five years ago um and then the the the big new uh u.

s factory for for tesla which is called gigatexas uh just by austin so those are the two big projects so these necessarily um drive the use of my time here um yeah and then the other big thing for uh tesla right now is the gig of berlin so i was in berlin i spent a fair amount of time in berlin working on that um and um yeah i think there's you know there's um california is great so there's a lot of things that are really great about california it's the biggest economy in the country most number of people um i do think that uh that there's there is something that happens when um you know if it's going into the sort of sports team analogy like if a team has been winning for too long they they do tend to get a little complacent a little entitled and then

they don't win the championship anymore so california's been winning for a long time um and i think they're taking them for granted a little bit yeah let's talk a little more on innovation in corporate america in general i mean innovation has always been core to who you are it's how you think about your companies and your role um in the corporate suite in america are our companies in general uh fostering and developing and innovation and are the leaders in corporate america you've got a lot of them on this call or are we do we prioritize innovation as much as we might uh or need to do you think right now well i i think there's this this innovation but then there's also just um our um ceos in corporate america focused enough on on product improvement i

think the answer is no um and i think generally my advice uh to or my recommendation would really be spend less time on on finance spend less time in conference rooms less time on powerpoint and more time just trying to make your product as amazing as possible um and particularly from that why why why why is that is that because uh boards or shareholders are too financed and returned focused and don't don't think enough about product as being at the heart of of value is because a certain kind of the skill is cultivated um why is that why why why is that a problem in the c-suite i think there might be too many mbas running companies um there's the mba isation of america which i think is maybe not that great um there should be more focus on on the product

the service itself less time on board meetings less time on on financials the financials come as a result like you say like what's the point of a company at all and why even have companies it's like a company's assembly of people uh gather together create a product or service and deliver that product to service and sometimes people lose sight of that a company has no value in and of itself it only has value to the degree that is effective allocator of resources to create goods and services that are of greater value than the cost the inputs this thing we call profit is uh just just should just mean over time that the value of the output is is worth more than the than the inputs and and it's a reflection of the quality of the product more than uh so so

the product is good presumably the profits follow rather than profits being called versus problems and yeah sometimes as people sort of have it backwards and you know if people are getting sort of the incentive structure is coming from the financial side of things i don't i just i just honestly would recommend to anyone listening uh that just spend less time in meeting rooms less time on on on powerpoint presentations less time in a spreadsheet and more time on the factory floor more time with customers and obviously a lot of people out there are already doing that but i just like i just urge people to say like hey step back a second and say is your product as awesome as it could be probably not um what could you do to make it make it great um and you

know it's it's a it feel like think about innovation like maybe it has to be like breakthrough innovation i don't think it necessarily has to be breaking innovation it's just like like you know just make your product better it's this is the thing that really matters is that kind of product mindset that the kind you describe is that learnable is it is it teachable or is there is there an innate element that somebody has to have to really to do it well i mean not everybody's innovating or thinking on your scale a lot but but you you hi you look for innovative people when you hire them is it something that that is pretty easy easily learnable or is there some inequality in the people that uh succeed i think it is learnable i mean step number one would be

try and any have you tried and if have you tried hard and if you haven't tried hard try hard i think it is learnable um it's not some mysterious thing it's just basically just be like an absolute perfectionist about the product that you make the service that's provided um seek negative feedback from all quarters uh you know from customers from from people who aren't customers like hey okay what can we make this how do we make this better um and you know i think that's it it's absolutely learnable and and and and just if you find yourself spending a lot of time in getting presentations and reviewing spreadsheets you're blocking up the wrong tree that's the that's the effect not the cause um so just get out there on the factory floor get out there in the

stores talk to customers think about what what would what would you love to have oh and you know sometimes i think you know and i've had this conversation that tells a few times where it's like we're trying to think okay we don't it's at times like we don't love this product but we think others will love it you know that's not really how it works if you don't love it don't expect others will either [Music] now you're at a moment i want to talk about your companies in a minute but you're at a moment where both we're particularly tesla and spacex are really growing in lots of ways right now um and you've had plenty of ups and downs even at this point but but but it's a high point on your own journey in this way what are the biggest mistakes you've made

that you've learned from because you talked a little bit about being willing to put yourself out there fail learn keep growing what were turning points for you that really you you you said wait a minute this is wrong or this is the wrong move either personally or or for the company and that that you learn from that have fed to where you are right now well if i had to list all the mistakes this would be a very long call um so it's too too much to even think of i'm trying to think like how could i could i classify them in some way um well i mean some of the things i mentioned just before it's like where you know i was recommending that people spend less time in a conference room less time getting presentations and and spreadsheets and that like generally

that's like when when i have spent too much time in a conference room that's generally when things have gone awry and when i go and spend time on the factory floor um or you know really using the the cars um thinking about the rockets it's like that's where things have gone gone better um but does that does that risk some some people would worry that that risk sending a message to your your teams that you personally have to be involved for something to work that you can't delegate or you can't trust them i think that's one thing that makes some [Music] executives reluctant they're trying to find that line between showing their personal commitment and trusting their subordinates to do the work so yeah i mean you're known for being passionate sleeping on

the factory floor but but but is that a concern for you or do you not care does this that's not an issue for you how do you think about it well there's a lot of talented people at spacex and tesla um and i think the morale is is good um uh i for sure respect them greatly and it's an honor to work with them um and i find that if if i am um engrossing the details of the issues this does not result in them feeling better but worse but feeling better like my experience more energized um you know it's like you know you think about like war it's like do you want the general in some like you know ivory tower or or on the front lines like troops gonna the troops are gonna fight a lot harder if they see the general on the front lines than if they think generals

you know in some cushy situation so it's like nobody bleeds the prince in the palace get out there on the goddamn front line and and you know show them that you care and that you're not just in some plush office somewhere um yeah i mean my plush office right now actually yeah yeah well yeah um let's talk quickly about tesla um but both tesla and spacex were scaling up today in fact i mean tesla touched 600 billion i think yesterday in evaluation today you said you're going to raise 5 billion to do stock sales um i assume and i assume what those gains are really in your mind going to do is help you scale up faster be poured back into investment because now is the moment to do that is that the plan here yeah i mean i i guess there's um you know what we're

kind of debating like should we raise money or should we not um it wasn't like a 100 sure thing um in the end we thought well we can retire a lot of the debt and increase the security of the company well probably a good thing uh and for less than one percent of solutions probably makes sense um but we're you know neither here here or there on that i think it's a it could have gone either way so what is so the money is for really debt retirement you're saying today uh debt retirement and like i guess to have a bit more of a war chest or you know um you know what what is money money is an entry in a database okay i want to think a couple questions uh from the audience first i want to go to a video question uh that we solicited um uh if we could play that

um hello my name is catherine parsons and i'm the ceo of technology education company decoded i want to know are machines able to innovate or is innovation an inherently human capability yeah i think uh machines will well my views on ai uh i've spoken a lot about this hey i will be able to do everything better than human over time everything everything includes yeah okay uh elon here's one um uh if you could have a very quick very quick easy one if you could redo the entire transportation infrastructure of the united states how would it look michael fountain asks the entire transportation infrastructure wow um the main thing that i see missing here is uh that we need to go 3d in cities in order to alleviate traffic congestion and um i think probably the

best way to do that is with uh with tunnels um it sounds it may sound a bit silly but boring company that you you started which looks at that now yeah in fact for for many years i was asked what do i see as the biggest opportunity for new companies and i kept saying can someone please build tunnels for half a decade i said this and nobody built tunnels so it's like fine we'll start a company and start building some tunnels and we've got the first tunnel that's uh going to be opening up first commercial tunnel opening up in vegas uh going from the convention center to the strip and i think who will have an opportunity to try it out and be able to see that hey if we just go 3d and cities we don't have to be stuck in gridlock those are great and so i'd recommend

tunnels and then for long distance travel the you can do tunnels or tubes but if you evacuate the tunnel and and essentially remove the air or most of the air you can you can get rid of the uh air friction and you can go uh supersonic uh and do so with i mean with no um dependence on weather and with no need to get to high altitude or create any sonic boom issues so that's what i meant by sort of a hyperloop it in it's just basically a pressurized electric car in a vacuum tube um so i think this this will be our evolution in transport that would be amazing um and um hopefully others do it not just the boring company okay here's one uh elon i'm a founder of a founder and ceo of a private company in the battle one of the changes i'm seeing uh is people

trying to force uh the company uh on political and social matters uh you know making demands not to sell police or not to sell the government agencies there's walkouts and protests google do you think this kind of thing is having a chilling effect or will have a chilling effect on innovation well a lot of this stuff is is centered in the san francisco bay area and i think there's the the silicon valley of the san francisco bay area has too much influence on the world in my opinion and i say that as someone who has spent most of his life in california mostly in the bay area so you're like you're like your friend peter thiel feels it's gotten more stifling up there you you that you're expressing you agree with me yes i think there's uh the the bay area

has outsized influence in the world uh so is that changing is the pandemic changing that i mean is there a real chance here that with departures and people leaving the valley that we're going to see some of that scatter out into the country side for good now uh post pandemic i think we'll see some reduction in the influence of silicon valley um but the social media is still very much centered in silicon valley so i think we need to be concerned about mind viruses just you know memes that travel very quickly through social media that may or may not be correct um and we certainly want to encourage a healthy dialogue uh so you know there's some out there who just want to shut down one side of a debate or another i think we should resist that yeah we're out

of time unfortunately because i could go for an hour we didn't even get to half of the questions i had but thank you for the time today it's good to see you uh and hope we can continue the conversation another time and it's always fascinating to hear what's on your mind so thanks and and good luck on your projects right now all right thank you thank you elon