外国，看到埃隆已经取得的成就，实在超乎寻常。我知道，随着他继续重新设计我们在这个星球上的生活方式，或者我应该说在这个宇宙中的生活方式，他还会带来更多成就。女士们、先生们，请欢迎我与埃隆·马斯克会面。[音乐] 好吧，首先，正如我今早所说，感谢你允许我们进入你的家，而且我尤其有如此忙碌的时间。我们接下来这段讨论的目标，其实更多是谈谈你来自哪里，你实际上如何塑造出后来成为的这个人，了解Tesla及其能源和自动驾驶汽车方面经历的一些起起落落，然后在此之外，试着弄清楚你对世界将走向何方的看法，这是预测。所以，所以你已经

被赋予过很多称呼，你被称为有远见者、创新者、现实版钢铁侠，而我很喜欢“世界上最酷的人”这个称呼。嗯，少些协作，让我们回到，呃，你的童年早期。你是如何从南非、大学以及美

国和加拿大，发展出这种大胆而宏伟的雄心的？在雅各布斯的人们当中，有哪些特别有影响力的时刻？嗯，其实，其实我当时没想到会做这些，我会尽量大声说话，所以这是个不错的工厂。没关系，没问题。嗯，所以，呃，我是说，有些事情让人预料到这一切会发生。嗯，在南非，我注意到，我只是读了很多漫画、玩电子游戏、给电脑编程，和一个年轻人一起创作了一款电子游戏，是的。嗯，写了一些游戏并把它们卖掉，这样我就能买到更好的电脑。嗯，还有，是的，算是造过两枚小火箭，而且，嗯，做过一些电路、所有收音机之类的东西。嗯，但是，嗯，是的，我是说，我只是想参与技术最前沿的工作，在一本书里，每当有

某种新事物被发明出来时，它往往是与硅谷对抗的。所以我小时候就知道，我最终想来这里，而我们处在努力创造让一切变得更好的技术的最前沿。嗯，很多人不知道这一点，但其实你创办第一家公司时，你和金巴尔确实睡在公司里，在早期确实用在这所房子和生意中，一位真正的企业家。是的，我们只有，呃，我们两个人加起来，我想也许，我想我大概有2000美元，别人有大概5000美元，所以得让这笔钱维持很长时间，那就像是全部资本。嗯，而且睡在办公室比租公寓便宜，所以我们，我们就把我送出这个，然后去了，在YMCA洗澡

在佩奇建造El Camino，是的，这样过了几个月。所以，在那次成功之后，你又通过，呃，通过PayPal取得了另一次成功，并以大约150万美元把公司卖给了eBay，自己拿到了大约1.65亿美元。而且，呃，对很多人来说，海滩本来会很有吸引力，但你却决定应对世界上最紧迫的挑战。你知道，这是怎么展开的？你是如何决定进入能源和太空领域的？是的，所以其实，这可以追溯到我上大学的时候。那时有一些，我当时认为，我想有一些事情最会影响人类的未来，而我最后仍然得出了大概5天。一个是可持续能源，包括生产和消费，另一个是让生命健康的行星，然后还有

互联网，当然，还有另外2项是重写化学遗传学和人工智能，而我对后2项不太确定。你知道，这有点像一把双刃剑，并不清楚哪个Ed带着正面的一刃。我会放一个来自Netflix的反馈。嗯，并不确定是正面的一刃还是负面的一刃更强。所以，嗯，我最初打算从研究矢量车辆问题开始，那正是把我带到硅谷的原因。我本来准备去，嗯，斯坦福大学攻读应用物理和材料科学博士学位，试着找出用于电动汽车的先进储能技术，然后坚持下去。我们会试着在互联网上做点什么，因为我觉得互联网当时，你知道，确实是时候了

对互联网而言正合适，价格就像95。

嗯，我知道它会带来真正具有变革性的东西，而我不想在读研究生时眼看着这一切发生，对吧。嗯，我觉得我随时都可以回去，所以我们在斯坦福没什么不同，而且我想我还在打电话，所以我确实说过我可以回来，而且不用交学费。这里有很多斯坦福的人，也许我们可以想办法在某个时候让你回去。是的。嗯，所以无论如何，嗯，所以我算是暂停了对那件不可归属之事的追求，去创办了你提到的几家互联网公司，对吧。而且我想，在PayPal之后，我决定重新开始研究电动汽车问题，嗯，橄榄球标签和太空探索，对吧。嗯，是的，所以，你知道，而且，而且并没有，并没有真正计划成为

2家公司的首席执行官，但事情差不多就这样发展了。可以说，这是一件相当、相当困难的事。我不会推荐这么做。嗯，你知道，人们总是让我描述你，描述我观察到的那种特征，而你刚刚提到了也许是我会率先说的一点，那就是你是我认识的工作最努力的人。从爸爸拥有你时直到今天，一直都是如此。嗯，埃隆，埃隆比我认识的任何人睡得都少，也比我认识的任何人工作都努力。你知道，当你思考这件事时，这不是凭空发生的，你就是，你确实投入了自己的鲜血、汗水、材料，而且那并非后视镜里的往事，就是今天。嗯，是的。嗯，我是说，我觉得我的义务算是要求我投入大量时间。嗯，而且

我是说，我想把它减少一点，呃，20左右。嗯，但是，比如说，我是说，如果你说每周工作90小时，那在SpaceX和Tesla之前只有45小时，从非常重要的公司的角度来说，其实并没有那么多。所以，是的，但从个人角度来说，它最终成了相当多的血。嗯，而且，嗯，我是说，我认为它最初安静的部分，几乎就像，就像汽车行业这件事。嗯，我是说，仅有的2家没有破产的美国汽车公司，嗯，是福特和Tesla。所以，这里净的、净的汽车公司算是，你知道，离全国性垄断最远的东西。是的。嗯，你知道，有意思的是，不仅仅是这样，当，当你开始参与Tesla时，恰逢人们开始说混合动力汽车将会

真正成为未来的浪潮。所以，从很多方面来说，你知道，今天看起来如此显而易见的事情，当时在你如今参与的全部3家公司所处的领域里根本就不明显，而就Tesla而言，人们显然并没有拥护电动汽车，但你看到了这一点。是的。嗯，我是说，我想可能公司，呃，在年度会议上会回顾一下，比如Tesla的历史、我们是如何起步的，以及接下来是什么。嗯，因为我觉得这，我喜欢这些机会，可以得到比如少于时间清单或，嗯。呃，我是说，Tesla的创世运动其实是2003年的一次午餐，当时是，嗯，我和杰里的旅行，对吧。嗯，其他联合创始人之一。而且，嗯，其实我们当时谈的是，比如电动飞机，嗯，还有太空方面的东西

然后，然后人口转向了电动汽车。正如我提到的，那算是我的一堆兴趣之一，而且，嗯，也是我本来准备在斯坦福研究的东西。嗯，JB也研究过电动汽车，他提到南加州有一家叫AC Proposal的小公司，是的，它制造了一辆t0，也就是一辆类似原型跑车的车。嗯，所以我对一辆t-0进行了一次不错的试驾，然后我试图说服AC Propulsion将t0商业化，因为它，它是个很酷的概念，但它比如没有空间容纳任何安全系统或任何东西。嗯，相当原始。嗯，但它体现了电动跑车能够做到什么的一些基本原理，所以他们确实非常值得赞扬，因为，嗯，就Tesla而言，如果没有

AC Propulsion，我不确定我会告诉某个已经开始的人，但时间会更晚。是的，然后，嗯，在我说，好吧，好吧，如果你们不打算做，那我想做之后，他们说，好吧，还有其他一些人也想做，也许你愿意，你知道，加入他们。于是我们创立了Tesla。而且我是说，有个有趣的小事实，比如一开始，我们实际上并不拥有Tesla Motors这个商标，它归萨克拉门托的某个家伙所有。没错。嗯，所以我们当时想，好吧，我们得更改公司名称，因为我们不拥有这个商标。嗯，你知道，围绕各种名字考虑过，其中一个名字其实是“parody”，比如“Clarity”本来会是我的第2个

选择，哇，不，讽刺的是，有一家叫 faradays 的竞争公司，对吧，嗯，而那个戏仿是那个提前的人，然后 Tesla 发明了交流感应电机，也就是我们在 Model 3 上使用的那种电机，哦，抱歉，是 Roadster，你知道，人们不常谈论 Tesla 的历史，今天人们也不太谈论它，但实际上我们一开始是董事会同事，也是共同的投资者，而我们实际上是 Tesla 的第4任首席执行官，我们会谈到早期那些日子里的一些艰苦工作，呃，事实上，你在那些过渡时期投入的工作可能一样多，最终决定接手它，嗯，是的，嗯，是的，我们创建 Tesla 时，我最初的目标是，我，我本来只是打算做某种工作

产品设计方面的工作，因为我是做工程的，而且，呃，我估计会把我20的时间分配出去，因为Tesla，然后，嗯，算是尝试了一连串首席执行官，但都没成功，然后我就想，好吧，要么在2008年，基本上的选择就是，要么Tesla会破产，要么我把我剩余的全部资本投入Tesla，在我，抱歉，而且更多，是的，还向朋友借钱之类的，所以，嗯，所以那时我就想，天啊，我把我的每一艘、所有船都摆到桌上了，所以我最好，你知道，如果你把所有筹码都放在桌上，你就得亲自打这手牌，对吧，所以就像，所以就像，好吧，我有一个BCU，所以你从那时起已经走了很远，呃，当你谈到，当我想到你成功的一些家庭作业时，所以很多

会想到一些事情，你知道，我认为是极其独立，你不会随大流，而且实际上，嗯，我认为有一个未得到充分重视的特点，就是你实际上是我合作过的所有人中最善于倾听的人之一，会从各种各样的来源获取意见，并最终据此作出决定，但令人难以置信的倾听者这点，人们往往谈得没那么多，是的，关于你的另一件事是，呃，你设法招募了你的增长桌，你很擅长雇用非凡的人，有时是非常规的雇用，你知道，想想你对招聘理念的恐惧，有时这些人以前实际上没有担任过那些职务，我能想到我们这里接触过的许多高管，他们取得了巨大的成功，但他们

以前并没有多次做过这件事的经历，但你看到了他们的成功。嗯，我认为，嗯，根本属性是，有人，呃，真的很有动力、很聪明而且很在行，他们是否有良好的反馈循环，比如，他们，嗯，是否会根据自己的经历调整行动方向，还是，或者他们，你知道，即便错了也认为自己是对的，所以我认为只是，嗯，那些确实是，我认为重要的3件事，像是有动力、根本性的、根本性的某种脑力，然后，嗯，然后是自我批判，如果，如果有人具备这3个特点，他们就能非常迅速地学会别的东西，这是很棒的建议，让我们再多谈谈 Tesla，谈谈我们今天所处的位置，我们需要思考，我们认为

关于你提到的事情，只是一直没有成功的美国汽车公司，我记得公司上市时，大新闻是第一家 U。

S 汽车 OEM 在超过 50 年里的 IPO，对吧，当然，你描述了此后一直延续的趋势，嗯，你知道，是什么、是什么让 Tesla 得以做到这一点，它是一家如此年轻的公司，在、在这个汽车公司的范围内真的很年轻，只有略多于 10 年，所以，嗯，是的，嗯，你认为什么让 Tesla 能够与现有企业竞争，嗯，我认为主要的一点是，现有企业抗拒新技术，而且我的意思是，一般来说，当存在这种、当存在重大的技术断层时，新公司就会有机会，某种技术上的阶跃式变化就是，嗯，为初创企业打开机会的东西，我的意思是，这个世界当然不需要另一家制造汽油车的卡片公司，已经有很多了，嗯，但是，呃

但没有人在做电动汽车，嗯，所以，我的意思是，我们之所以开始把所有精力投入其中，是因为，嗯，并不是因为我们认为电动汽车存在这个巨大的机会，而实际上是因为没有人在做电动，我的意思是，就像所有人都认为这很愚蠢，嗯，而大公司多少有些愚笨，也没有任何初创企业真正在做，所以，所以就像，如果大公司不去做电动汽车，那它就必须来自一家初创企业，而，是的，所以那是唯一的选择。我记得你和我同一位未透露姓名的、非常大型的汽车 OEM CEO 共进晚餐，他宣称自己实际上无法制造电动汽车，因为这会蚕食他的业务，并会惹恼他的员工、经销商群体，嗯，是的，嗯，我的意思是，我认为

因为，我的意思是，他们中的一些人后来确实做了，我的意思是，我的意思是，在我们展示了之后，因为 Roadster，然后 Bob Labs 启动了 The Vault 项目，是的，这随后也促成了 Nissan Leaf 项目，所以即便 Roadster 是一款产量非常低的汽车，我们没有制造很多辆，但它产生了非常大的杠杆效应，迫使 GM 和 Nissan 开展 Ed 项目，是的，嗯，而且实际上，机器人多少算是用 ball 项目的灵感让我们做好了准备，所以即使在早期，研究人员也对行业产生了超出其规模的影响，这也是你从早期起就怀有的目标之一，是的，绝对是，而且我一直认为，Tesla 将产生的最大影响不会是我们直接促成的事业，而是因为我们促使其他人对我这样做，所以

说到这里，交通运输行业是什么，它实际上正在经历巨大的变化，而也许没有什么比自动驾驶以及最终的无人驾驶更重要，谈谈这正在产生的影响，以及未来对交通运输的影响，尤其是考虑到汽车保险未得到利用的资产基础，嗯，是的，我认为使其实现自动驾驶的普及速度会比人们想象的快得多，嗯，我的意思是，嗯，我们，我猜我不知道，从现在起 7 或 8 年，生产的所有汽车中有一半将是完全自动驾驶的，哇，大概是这样，是的，10 年肯定会，嗯，而且，嗯，它就会像是，如果你的停车场里没有它，那反而会很奇怪，对吧，就像卡片里没有 GPS 一样，是的，而且我知道你的 GPS，嗯，但是、但是更大的，嗯，它将

只是变得正常，而这会对，呃，对资产基础产生什么样的影响？我肯定会有更高的汽车利用率，我仍然认为大多数人会想拥有自己的酒吧，就像大多数人想拥有自己的房子，而他们不想去某种，我的意思是，理论上你可以，你知道，只用 Airbnb，全职住在别人的房子里，对吧，但那会，人们不喜欢那样，嗯，而且我认为，我认为存在这种，我的意思是，存在共享，这整个所谓的共享经济很重要，但不是、不是可用的，是的，嗯，好吧，我的意思是，为了解决某种能源问题，你必须让成本能够与化石燃料竞争，或者在包括激励措施的情况下在后经济上具备竞争力，嗯，我的意思是，根本

化石燃料的问题是，存在、存在实际上隐含的意义，即没有，化石燃料的每一次使用实际上都伴随着一项补贴，是的，这正是人们没有完全意识到的，是的，确实如此，嗯，每当你没有为某个未定价的外部性的真实成本付费时，你实际上就是在补贴某种东西，这就像你可以直接把垃圾倒在街上，而不必支付垃圾清运费，对吧，嗯，尽管那显然是一种替代，所以道路上的每一辆汽油车，每一辆，都有补贴，那是对公共物品的补贴，嗯，因此现在，解决那项，嗯，汽、汽油车补贴的正确方法是征收共同税，向任何经济学家展示这个，他们都会告诉你，当然，那是修复这个好斗的

机制的正确方法，但通过碳税通常在政治上很困难，尤其是当化石燃料行业一方拥有，嗯，巨大的爱之力量，并阻止其发生时，所以政治家通常会选择一条更容易的路径，向电动汽车提供补贴，而这些补贴通常，嗯，并、不等同于汽油车所获得的隐含补贴，然后当然还会受到攻击，就好像 EVie 正在获得补贴，而汽油车没有，但你的糟糕汽油车得到的公共物品补贴比 EVS 得到的更大，对吧，是的，这是一个根本性的概念误解，嗯，所以，嗯，你知道，在 DBL，我们认为必须拥抱政策，也许我会就化石燃料补贴及其运作写一份非凡的白皮书

除了技术之外，还很难专注于重要的政策目标，这一直是你、Tesla 和 Solar City 真正认真对待的事情，你们花了大量时间为我们的社群提供建议，并思考我们实际上怎样才能把议程向前推进、推进。你知道，人们会谈论这些汽车有多棒，但实际上我们需要政策举措来推动议程，实现你所拥有的那种愿景。是的，我的意思是，这个，我的意思是，困难之处在于，因为，呃，汽油是，当石油如此便宜，而噼啪作响的技术确实大幅压低了成本时，这实际上会削弱向可持续交通和可持续……转型的经济推动力

总体能源。所以，[音乐] 我的意思是，这对世界真的相当糟糕。我曾经，我曾经受到巴黎会谈的鼓舞，至少，呃，各国已经口头承诺要做、要做些什么，以某种方式解决改变海洋和大气化学成分这一未被定价的外部性，嗯，但、但这正缓慢发生，而且，嗯，然后不幸的是，化石燃料开采方面的技术、技术进步已经取得巨大提升，推动成本下降，所以这对世界的未来确实、确实相当令人担忧。嗯，我认为，我们唯一听不到的事情，就是试图呼吁、呼吁民众，是的，教育人们以某种方式反抗这一切，对吧，并且以某种方式对抗福斯特学校行业的宣传

这是毫不松懈的。嗯，发生的一件事是，比如，在国际货币基金组织（IMF）发布研究、显示化石燃料和补贴每年达到 6 万亿美元，也就是每年 6 万亿美元之后，嗯，是的，然后油气行业的某位代表，嗯，把 Tesla 已经获得以及未来将获得的所有激励都加了起来，碰巧与 60 亿美元相吻合。但这个，这个增长，如果你把 Tesla 未来 20 年将获得的一切都算进去。好吧，这就像拉出某个有东西的人，而且我想那笔已经还清的贷款，是的，包括那笔已经还清的贷款，也被加在里面了，对吧？比如，什么，把那个还了，所以，嗯，还带利息。我当时就想，你知道，如果你的税款因此下降……

那不是上升，所以，但是它、它，他们、他们想让它听起来以一个6开头，所以，然后，所以基本上大致是国际货币基金组织研究的倍数，他们开始把那个故事切碎后递给记者。嗯，你知道，Tesla 正在获得60亿美元补贴，而这听起来有点像6万亿美元补贴，因为它有一个60，它有一个6维度，以及10亿、万亿，你知道，这有点接近同一个量级，只不过我是20年60亿，而那是每年6万亿。[音乐] 而且我让《洛杉矶时报》相信了它，在……说刊登那个完全毫无意义的说法。嗯，不幸的是，你知道，所以那就只是这种宣传战的一个例子。重要的是你要继续反击，而每个人都需要采取自己的方式去做同样的事。他们会

在我们结束之前换个话题，谈谈你的其他一些事情，关于你是如何思考的，其中一个是你之前提到的，你谈到了一点人工智能。你知道，雷·库兹韦尔谈过加速回报定律，其观点是，对技术历史的分析是指数式的，而不是线性的，并且随着时间推移，机器实际上有可能接管人类生活。请谈谈你对人工智能的看法。那是个，那是个复杂的答案。嗯，我的意思是，我认为机器智能正沿着一条与这里的 AC 智能匹配的轨道前进，这相当明显。是的，我的意思是，而且，呃，你知道，指数曲线的特点之一是，从近处看，指数曲线看起来是在学习，所以放大来看，它看起来是线性的，但实际上，如果你把这些点绘制在一条曲线上，它、它是

显然，这是财务方面的，嗯，而且有一种说法是，我可以说它是指数式的，纵轴是什么，而我认为可以说它是递归的纵轴，所以如果在任何特定年份，如果你认为 AI 会更早发生，而不是如果如果你对 AI 投资的预测随着每个时代的过去而趋于一致，对吧，那么，嗯，可以合理地说它是指数式增长，而我认为情况当然确实如此，设施海军陆战队，所以所以这是一个非常有意思的问题，比如我认为，即使在良性情境下，就业方面也会发生巨大的剧变，是的，你有了自动驾驶汽车，那么，你知道，人口中那 12 个以开汽车、开卡车或做类似工作为职业的人会怎样，嗯，我的意思是，我认为

这些确实是我们未来将面对的非常深刻、深刻的问题，但它将不止于你的自动驾驶汽车，那只是聚焦于汽车的一个例子，汽车不会接管世界，什么会做任何事情，你知道，这会让人感觉像电梯，我以前好像有电梯操作员，嗯，是的，我们会想培训电梯专家来，嗯，操作电梯，而现在你的扫描器按下按钮，我们就不用担心了，嗯，汽车也会是同样的情况，它们给人的感觉就会是那样，嗯，但其他其他最终，如果数字智能变得超越人类，就像我说的，它正沿着电视的轨道发展，那么它将能够比我们更好地完成我们能做的一切，至少，让我问着回到 SpaceX 房间，因为自从

我们 2 年前聚集在这里以来，太空会议过去几年取得的成就并非远非惊人，呃，最近的着陆被形容为或许是几十年来播映太空领域最重大的事件，但有意思的是，如果你展望未来 1 年、未来这些年，或许会更令人兴奋，就稍微预览一下管道里接下来会有什么、9月，以及 SpaceX 正在发生什么，是的，所以我们的目标是在今年晚些时候改进一个陆地助推器，是的，而它，呃，所以那会很重要，我们有，呃，Falcon Heavy，它将是最大的火箭，拥有自 Saturn 5 以来最高的入轨载荷。

嗯，而且，嗯，是的，那会是个值得观看的有趣场面，如果你从卡纳维拉尔角带走它们，我建议建议前来，嗯，你不需要离得很近就能真正体验那是什么感觉，我不需要抢先，嗯，而且，呃，然后实际上我们要尝试把所有 3 个助推器都带回来，所有 3 个，你知道，侧面的竞速器和中央芯级，所以会像这样，或者你知道，轨道体操，嗯，花样体操，会像是，我的意思是，我们会看看会发生什么，这很棘手，嗯，然后明年，如果如果日程不变，我们将首次把宇航员送往空间站，而且显然美国。

S 助理在俄罗斯，或者把我们送往空间站，所以我们期待执行那项任务，然后，呃，最近的军事合同，当时，是的，我们终于赢得了，嗯，空军发射，这是一场艰苦的战斗，而洛克希德多年来一直在努力阻止我们参与竞争，所以他们不断从国防部获得这些独家的社会主义合同，最终它开放竞争了，不，不是整个合同，只是其中几个，而且，嗯，以及所有人，我们第一个算是，嗯，你是一个严肃的舷外储存合同亚空间，期待未来与各机场进行大量发射，嗯，然后我们还宣布，我们将执行首次火星任务，很可能是在 2018 年，它是

现在只工作了几年，所以我们使用一枚重型火箭，把我们的一艘 Dragon 2 航天器送到火星表面，而 Dragon 2 的设计是以推进方式着陆，并且它配备了重型隔热罩，所以为了随机化，你确实需要一个能承受极端高温的强力隔热罩，然后还能够以排斥方式着陆，所以这不会成为一个重要的探路者，最终通向最殖民架构，所以我一开始把你描述为在设计我们的未来，而你已经听到了很多你这样做的例子，但我认为，在观察你和 Tesla 所做之事时，对我来说最有趣的是我之前谈到的，驳倒这种权衡观念，驳倒这种认为你必须在你

想要为世界实现的目标与你想从商业角度实现的目标之间作出妥协的观念，而你知道，Tesla 显然是作为一家目的驱动型公司创立的，SolarCity、SpaceX 也是如此，而且你知道，在 DBL，我们一直建立在使命驱动型公司这一前提之上，并支持你和 Tesla 所代表的那类影响力创业者，请谈谈这个，这是你的领导力以及你如何将两者结合起来的理念中如此重要的主题，而且你实际上正在通过产品以及你参与的这类公司来表明，这并不关乎权衡或妥协，而是第一和第二条底线齐头并进，当然，嗯，呃，我认为总体而言，我是说，我认为算是任何、任何产品，其他人

和社会认为有用，我是说，我认为那也是一件很棒的事，所以，嗯，你知道，我不想算是，你知道，声称自己有某种伟大的道德之类的，所以我认为，任何对其他人有用的事情都是好事，所以，我是说，我认为最难的事情之一就是做一些有用、也许能带来改变、让人们生活得更好的事情，有些产品也能做到这一点，但你知道，那个，我是说，Tesla 和 SolarCity 的苹果之战，那里真正酷的战斗是因为，你知道，原因数量的帮助，像阅读一样，需要很多算是创业技能，以及文明的一部分，你知道，亚麻布，甚至 SolarCity 的其他人，以及我们在 Tesla 这里的团队，嗯，就是这从根本上说是一场经济上的

上坡战，因为你有，嗯，因为碳没有被正确定价，这从根本上让问题困难得多，就像你只是在与某种东西竞争，而它获得了，你知道，每年 6 万亿美元的公共利益补贴，嗯，所以那就是，那真的非常困难 [音乐]，嗯，而且，嗯，是的，所以为了克服这一点，在 Tesla，我们，我们正努力让这款车尽可能有吸引力，即使，你知道，它比具有同等能力的汽油车稍微贵一点，或者至少贵一点，所以，嗯，但我们可以克服那么多，让这款车非常有吸引力，嗯，然后仍然有些更难，因为很难，更难在太阳能方面实现产品差异化，而且，嗯，整个行业

它一直，它一直是一个艰难且真正有帮助的行业，嗯，但但尽管如此，我是说，关于它有很多，呃，我们得以，呃，你可以打造一家可行的公司，但当游戏规则，嗯，不利于可持续能源时，这就只是热得多，根本问题在于规则的设定方式并不利于可持续能源，而且，呃，是的，那是我们确实需要共同解决的事情，新闻中的少数人不需要共同解决那个，而我，我，我算是对我所看到的感到兴奋，比如，嗯，千禧一代，是的，年轻人在这件事上的能量水平，我是说，每个人都能明白，是的，所以我确实认为这只是个问题，这只是时间问题，直到，嗯，直到这发生，而问题只是

要多久，而事实上，就考虑比如 Tesla 总部所在城市的根本益处而言，我会把它描述成某种根本益处，即它在何种程度上、加速了多少年，呃，是的，比如电动汽车和太阳能，所有那些事情无论如何都会发生，但它是，但在历史背景背景下，这种根本益处可以通过 Tesla 在何种程度上加速了可持续交通领域的管理人员来衡量，现在就像，如果我们能够加速并找到比如 10 年，那会是，那会非常了不起，那会很棒。

foreign it's beyond extraordinary to see what elon's accomplished already I know there is so much more to come from him as he continues to re-engineer our way of life on this planet or should I say in this universe ladies and Gentlemen please welcome me joining Elon Musk [Music] well first of all as I said this morning thanks for allowing us into your home and I particularly have such a busy time our goal over this next period of discussion is really quite a bit more about where you came from how you actually developed the person you came into to learn about some of the ups and downs and Tesla and its energy and autonomous vehicle aspects and then beyond that trying to figure out your thoughts on where the world's going it's prognostication so so you've

been called a lot of things you've been called a Visionary an innovator the real Iron Man and I love the the world's raddest man um less collaboration take us back uh it's your Early Childhood how did you develop South Africa the college and the U.

S and Canada to having this just bold and big ambition and what were some of the particularly influential moments where people at Jacobs um well actually I actually didn't expect to be doing this when I was I'll try to talk loudly so it's a good Factory it's okay no problem um so the uh I mean something to expect that any of this would happen um South Africa I noticed I just read a lot of comics played video games program computers created a video game with a young man yeah um wrote some games and sold them so I could get better computers um and uh yeah sort of both little rockets and um that did some circuitry all radios and everything um but um yeah I mean I just wanted to be involved in The Cutting Edge of technology in a book that whenever there's

something new that's invented it's very often against Silicon Valley so when I was a kid I knew I wanted to Ultimate up here and we have the the Forefront of trying to create technologies that make it all better well a lot of people don't know this but actually when you started your first company you and Kimball actually slept at the company actually used in this house and business in those early days a true entrepreneur yeah we only had a uh between us I think maybe I think I had like two thousand dollars and people had like five thousand dollars so which make it lasts a long time that was like a total capital um and it was cheaper to just sleep in the office than rent an apartment so we we just sent me out this and went to the the showered at the YMCA

on page building El Camino yeah that for a few months so after that success you went on to another success with uh with PayPal and sold the company in eBay for about a million and a half dollars pocketed about 165 million dollars and uh for a lot of people the beach would have been attractive but instead he decided to tackle the world's most pressing challenges you know how did that unfold how did you decide to go into energy and space yeah so actually the it kind of goes back to when I was in college the there were I thought I think one of the things that were most affect the future of humanity and I still came out with like five days one was sustainable energy both production and consumption and the other was making life healthy planetary then there's

the internet of course and and then the other two items were rewriting chemogenetics and AI and I wasn't too sure about the latter two you know sort of a double-edged sword where it's not clear which Ed with a positive Edge I'm going to put a feedback from Netflix um it wasn't there was a positive Edge or the Negative Edge is stronger so um and I was originally going to start off working on the vector vehicle problem that's what brought me on to Silicon Valley I was going to go to um Stanford to do PhD and applied physics and Material Science to try to figure out Advanced Energy storage techniques for electric vehicles and then hold to we'll try to do something on the Internet because I figured the internet was you know it was really that the time was

right for the internet prices like 95.

um I knew it would be something really transformative and I didn't want to watch that happen while I was in grad school right um I figured I could always go back so we're not different at Stanford and I think I'm still on the phone so I actually said I could come back and I don't have to pay tuition there's a lot of Stanford folks here maybe we can figure out a way to get you back in at some point yeah um so anyway so um so I kind of took a break from pursuing the the untributical thing to do a couple internet companies that you mentioned right and I think after PayPal decided to return to working on the electric vehicle problem um football tags and space exploration right um and yeah so you know and and didn't didn't sort of really plan on being CEO

of two companies but it kind of worked out that way it is let's say quite quite a difficult thing I wouldn't recommend it well you know people always ask me to describe you what kind of the characteristics I observe and you just touched on perhaps the one that I was lead with which is you are the hardest working person I know that's been true from the dad had you and all the way through today um Elon Elon sleeps less than anyone I know and works harder than anyone I know you know when you think about this this doesn't just happen you have just you have literally put your blood sweat materials and that's not in the rear view mirror that's today um yeah um I mean I think it's sort of my obligations kind of require putting in a huge amount of time um and

I mean I would like to reduce it by a little bit uh 20 or so um but like I mean if you say like a 90 hour week that's only 45 hours before SpaceX and Tesla it's not that much really important company basis so yeah but it ends up being quite a blood for on a personal basis um and um I mean I think that the first quiet part of it almost like like the thing about like the car industry um I mean the only two car American car companies that haven't gone bankrupt um are Ford and Tesla so the net the net here a car company is sort of you know the furthest thing from a national Monopoly yeah well you know it's interesting it's not just that when when you started getting involved in Tesla it was just at the beginning of people saying hybrid electric cars were

actually going to be the wave of the future and so in so many ways you know what seems so obvious today wasn't at all in areas of all three of the companies you're involved with today and in Tesla's case clearly the people weren't championing electric cars but you saw that yeah um I mean I think probably the company uh at annual meeting will go through just recap in like the history of Tesla and how we started out and what makes the next um because I think this I love this opportunities to get like less than the list of time or um the uh I mean the Genesis sport for Tesla is actually a lunch in 2003 with um me and Jerry's travel right um one of the other co-founders and um and it was actually we were talking about like electric planes um and space stuff

and then and then the population turned to electric vehicles as I mentioned that was like a bunch of interest of mine and um and it was what I was going to be working on at Stanford um and the JB had also worked on electric vehicles and he mentioned like a little company in Southern California called AC proposal yeah which created a t0 which is a like a prototype sports car um and so I got a good test drive with a t-0 and then I tried to convince AC propulsion to commercialize in t0 because it was it was a cool concept but it like didn't have a room for any safety systems or anything um quite primitive um but it's some of the basic fundamentals of what electric sports car could do so they deserve a lot of credit actually for um for Tesla like without

AC propulsion I'm not sure I'm going to tell somebody who started but it would have been later yeah and then um after I said well okay well if you're not going to do that then I'd like to do it and they said well okay well there's some other people that also want to do it if it's maybe you want to you know join up with them and so we created Tesla and I mean interesting sort of little factoid like the in the beginning we didn't actually own the trademark Tesla Motors it was owned by some dude in Sacramento it's right um so we were like okay we're gonna have to change the company name because we don't own the trademark um you know about it around various names and one of the names was actually parody like that Clarity would have been my sort of second

choice wow no ironically there's a competitor company called faradays right um and the parody was the guy in advance and then Tesla invented the AC induction motor which is the type of motor we use in the the model 3 oh sorry about the the Roadster you know people don't often talk about the the history of Tesla people don't talk about it a lot today but actually we started out as fellow board members and the investors together and we were actually the fourth CEO of Tesla and we talk about some of the hard work those early days were uh for ones that actually you probably put as much work in as in those days to transition finally decided to take it over um yeah um yeah my initial goal when we created Tesla was I I was was just going to be kind of working

on the product design because I'm engineering and uh I figured it would allocate 20 of my time because Tesla and then um sort of tried as succession of CEOs that didn't work out and then I was like well either in 2008 it was basically the choice of either Tesla's going to go bankrupt before I put all of my remaining capital in Tesla before I'm sorry and more yeah it's borrowing money from friends and stuff so um so at that point I was like man I got like every all my ships on the table so I better you know if you've got all the chips in the table you've got to play the hand yourself right so it's like so it's like okay I got a BCU so you've come a long way uh since that time when you talk when I think about some of the homeworks of your success so a lot

of things come to mind you know I think fiercely independent that you don't follow the herd and actually um I think one of the underappreciated characteristics is you're actually one of the best listeners of anyone I work with and take inputs uh from a wide variety of sources and ultimately make your decision based on it but incredible listeners that people tend not to talk about as much yeah the other thing about you is uh you've managed to recruit your grow table you have a knack for hiring phenomenal people sometimes unconventional hires you know think about your fear of recruiting philosophy sometimes these are people who didn't actually have those roles before I can think of a number of our Executives here accessing been hugely successful but they

didn't have a history of having done it as many times before but you saw the success of them well I think the the fundamental properties of um there's somebody uh really driven and smart and on it do they have a good feedback loop like do they um do they adjust their course of action based on their experiences or or do they you know think that they're right even when they're wrong so I think just um those are really I think the three things that are important like sort of driven fundamentally fundamental sort of brain power and um and then being self-critical and if those if somebody has those three characteristics they can pick something else up very quickly it's a great advice let's talk more about Tesla where we are today we need to think we think

about you referenced it there just haven't been successfully us car companies I remember when the company went public and the big news was first U.

S auto OEM IPO in more than 50 years right of course you described the trend that's continued since then um you know what's what's the enabled Tesla it's such a young company really young in the in this with the spectrum of car companies so a little over a decade plus so um yeah um what do you think's enable Tesla to compete against incumbency um I think the main thing is that the incumbents are resistant to new technology and I mean generally There's an opportunity for new companies when there's this when there's a significant technology discontinuity some sort of Step change in technology is what um opens up an opportunity for a startup I mean certainly the world wouldn't need another card company that made gasoline cars or plenty of those um but uh

but no one was doing electric cars um so the I mean the reason we started as a put all the effort into it was that um not because we thought there was this huge opportunity in electric vehicles but actually because no one was doing electric I mean it was like everyone thought it was stupid um and the big company sort of was Dumb and it weren't really any startups doing it so so it's like a big company's not going to do electric vehicles then it has to come from a startup and yeah so that's the only option I remember at dinner you and I had with an unnamed very large Auto OEM CEO who's promoting that he couldn't actually create an electric car because it would cannibalize his business and would upset his employees dealer base um yeah um I mean I think

because I mean some of them later did I mean I mean after we demonstrated the because the Roadster then Bob Labs kicked off The Vault program yeah which then also enabled the Nissan Leaf program so even though the Roadster was a very low production vehicle we didn't make very many of them it had a very leveraged effect in forcing GM and Nissan to do Ed programs yeah um and actually robots was kind of prepared us with the inspiration for the ball program so researchers are an outsized effect on the industry even in the early days which is one of the goals you've had since the early days yeah absolutely and I always thought that the biggest effect that Tesla would have would not be the cause that we've made directly but because we induced others to me So

speaking what's the transportation industry is actually undergoing massive change and perhaps nothing more important than autonomous driving and ultimately self-driving and talk about the impact that's having and going ahead on Transportation particularly given an unutilized asset base of the automobile insurance um yeah I think it's going to become common for cause to be autonomous a lot faster than people think um I mean well we I guess I don't know seven or eight years from now half of all cars produced will be fully autonomous wow something like that yeah 10 years for sure um and um it will just be like something that would be odd if it's not in your park right it's like not having GPS in a card yeah and I know your GPS um but but even bigger um it'll

just be normal and what kind of impact does that have to the uh to the asset base I will certainly have higher utilization of the of cars I still think most people are going to want to have their own bar it's like most people want to have their own house and they don't want to sort of I mean in theory you could you know just do Airbnb and live in somebody else's house right full time but that would people don't like that um and I think I think there's this I mean there's a sharing this sort of whole sharing economy is significant but not the not available yeah um well I mean in order to solve a sort of energy problem you have to get the cost to be competitive with fossil fuels or post-conomically competitive inclusive incentives um I mean the fundamental

issue with fossil fuels is that there's there's effectively implied in sense that there's there's no every use of fossil fuels comes actually with a subsidy yeah this is what people don't totally appreciate yes it is um whenever you're not paying the true cost of of a of an unpriced externality you're effectively subsidizing something it would be like if you could just dump garbage in the street and not pay for garbage pickup right um although that's obviously a substitute so every gasoline car on the road every one of them has a subsidy it's a subsidy of the public good um and so now the the right way to address that um gas gasoline car subsidy is with a common tax a show to any Economist they will tell you of course that's the right way to fix the feisty

mechanism but passing a carbon tax is usually politically difficult particularly when you have um enormous loving power on a part of the fossil fuel industry and preventing that from occurring so then politicians usually choose the easier path of providing subsidies to electric vehicles which are usually um don't don't equal the implied subsidy of gasoline vehicles and then of course get attacked like what as though Evie is being subsidized but gasoline cars or not when your bad gasoline cars are receiving a bigger subsidy right of the public good than EVS are yeah this is a fundamental conceptual misunderstanding um so um you know at DBL we think we got to embrace policy maybe I'll do an extraordinary white paper on the subsidy of fossil fuels and works

very hard to focus on on the important policy objectives in addition to the technology that's been something you and Tesla and Solar City and have really taken seriously and spent a significant amount of time as you're advising our community and thinking about how we actually can push the agenda forward forward you know people talk about how great the cars are but we actually need policy initiatives to push the agenda to hit the kind of vision that you have yeah I mean it's the I mean the tough thing is that because uh gasoline is when oil is like so cheap in a crackling technology it's really driven the costs down dramatically what this effectively does is weaken the economic forcing function to transition to sustainable transport and to sustainable

energy in general so [Music] I mean it's really quite bad for the world I was I was encouraged by the Paris talks at least uh countries that have committed you know verbally to do to do something to sort of address the unpriced externality of changing the chemical composition of the oceans and atmosphere um but but it is happening slowly and um and then unfortunately technology technology advancements in the extraction of fossil fuels have improved tremendously driving the cost down so it is it is quite worrying for the future of the world um I think the the only thing that we don't hear is to try to appeal appeal to the people yeah educate people to sort of revolt against this right and to to sort of fight the propaganda of the Foster School industry

which is unrelenting um one thing that happened was like after the IMF came out with their study showing them fossil fuels and subsides to the tune of six trillion dollars a year like Six Trillion per year um yeah then um some representative of the oil and gas industry um added up all the incentives that Tesla has received and will receive in the future which happens to coincide to with 6 billion but this this increase if you count everything Tesla will receive over the next 20 years okay it's like pulling somebody who has stuff and I think the loan that was paid back yeah including the loan that was paid back that was added in there as well right like what the pay that back so um with interest and I was like you know if your taxes went down as a result

of that not up so the but it it they they wanted it to sound to start with a six so then so basically roughly multiple IMF study they started chopping that story around to journalists um you know Tesla's getting a six billion subsidy and it sounds a bit like the six trillion dollar subsidy because it has a 60 it's got a six Dimension and billion trillion you know it's kind of close by the same level and except I was a six billion over 20 years there's a Six Trillion per year [Music] and I got the LA Times to buy it on a says run that was totally nonsensical um and unfortunately that you know so that's like just one example of the sort of propaganda War it's important you keep fighting back and everyone needs to do their approach to do the same they'll

switch gears before we wrap up to just some of your other things about how you think and one of them you referenced it earlier you talked a bit about AI you know Ray Kurzweil talked about the law of accelerating returns where the notion that analysis of the history of technology is exponential not linear and over time the potential of machines actually to take over human life give us your thoughts on AI that's was a that's a complicated answer um I mean I think it's pretty obvious that machine intelligence is on a track to match the AC here at intelligence yeah I mean and uh you know one of the things about an exponential is that close up and exponential looks learning so zoom in it looks linear but actually if you plot the points on a curve it's it's

that obviously it's Financial um and there's some argument of I can say it's exponential what's the y-axis and I think you can arguably say it's a recursive y-axis so if in any given year if you think that AI is going to happen sooner rather than if if your predictions for the investment AI are converging with each passing era right then um it's fair to say that it is an exponential growth and that certainly is I think really the case facility Marine so so it's a really interesting question like I think there's even in the benign scenario there is tremendous upheaval in terms of employment yeah you have self-driving cars then what happens to the you know 12 of the population whose job it is to drive a car or drive a truck or something um I mean I think

these are really profound profound questions we're going to face in the future but it's going to go beyond your self-driving cars that's a case of narrowing on car's not going to take over the world what would do anything you know it's something it's going to feel like an elevator I used to have like elevator operators um and yes we'd like to train the elevator expert to um operate the elevator and now your scanner press button and we don't worry about it um it's gonna be the same thing for cars they feel just like that um but other other eventually if digital intelligence becomes superhuman which it's like I said it's on track TV then it will be able to do everything that we can do better at least let me asking to go back to SpaceX room because since

we gathered here two years ago what space sessions accomplished in the last few years it's not nothing short of Staggering uh the recent Landing has been described as perhaps the most significant event in the Airing space in decades but what's interesting is if you look out over the coming year the coming years perhaps even more exciting just get sort of a bit of a preview as to what's coming down the pipe September and what's going on at SpaceX yeah so we're aiming to to refine one of the land boosters later this year yeah and it uh so that that'll be significant we've got uh Falcon heavy which will be the biggest rocket the highest payload to orbits and Saturn 5.

um and um yeah that'll be that'll be a fun one to watch if you take them from Cape Canaveral I'd recommend recommend coming um you won't need to be close to really experience what it's like I don't need to be preempting um and uh and then actually we're gonna try to bring back all three boosters all three you know the side racers in the center core so it's gonna be like this or you know orbital gymnastics um synchronized gymnastics it's gonna be like I mean we'll see what happens is a tricky um that then next year if if schedules hold we'll be transporting astronauts to the space station for the first time and apparently the U.

S assistant on Russia or transporting us towards to the space station so we're looking forward to doing doing that mission and then uh recent military contract when yeah we we finally won um Air Force launch which was a tough battle going and Lockheed had been fighting for years to prevent us from being able to compete so they kept getting these exclusive socialist contracts with DOD and finally it was opened up to competition no not the whole contract but just a few of them and um and everyone our first sort of um you're a serious outboard storage contract Subspace looking forward to doing a lot of launches with the airports in the future um and then we also announced that we're going to be doing our first mission to Mars and probably on the 2018 it's

only a couple years of working now so we send one of our Dragon 2 spacecraft to the surface of Mars using a heavy rocket and Dragon 2 is designed to land propulsively and it's it's got a heavy duty heat shield so in order to randomize do you really need a powerful heat shield that can withstand extreme heat and then be able to land repulsively so this doesn't be an important Pathfinder for ultimately the most Colonial architecture so I began by describing you as engineering our future and you've heard a lot of examples the way you're doing it but I think what's what's most interesting to me about watching what you and Tesla have done is what I talked about before is debunking this notion of trade-off debunking this notion that you have to compromise what

you want to accomplish with the world and what you want to accomplish from a business perspective and you know Tesla was clearly founded as a Purpose Driven company as with SolarCity SpaceX and you know a DBL we it's been built on the premise of mission-driven companies and backing the kind of impact entrepreneurs that you and Tesla represent talk about that that's such an important theme of your leadership and your philosophy about how you marry the two and how you're actually showing both with the products as well as the kind of companies you're involved with that it is not about trade-off or compromise but the first and second bottom line go hand in hand sure um well I mean I think generally I mean I consider sort of any any product that other people

and Society find useful I mean I think that's a great thing too so um you know I wouldn't want to sort of you know claim some great morality or anything so I think anything that's done that's useful to other people is good so I mean I think that's like one of the hardest things is just being doing something that is useful in that maybe makes a difference it makes people's lives better also some products do that but you know the I mean the Apple battle for Tesla and SolarCity the real cool battle there is because of you know the reason amount of help like reading needed a lot of sort of entrepreneurial skills and part of civil you know linen and even others at SolarCity and the team we have here at Tesla um was that it's just fundamentally an economic

uphill battle because you have um because carbon is not priced correctly it fundamentally makes the problem much harder it's like you're just competing against something which get you know which has a six trillion dollar a year subsidy the public good um and so that's just that's just really difficult [Music] um and um yeah so in order to overcome that Tesla we we were trying to make the car as compelling as possible even though you know it's a little more expensive than a gasoline car or equivalent capability or at least a little bit more expensive so um but we can overcome that much to make the car very compelling um and then still there's sort of harder because it's hard to get harder to get product differentiation on solar and um this whole industry

it's been it's been a difficult really helpful industry um but but nonetheless I mean with a lot about it uh we get to uh you can make a viable company but it's it's just considerably hotter when the rules of the game um do not favor sustainable energy that's like a fundamental problem is that the way the rules are set up they do not favor sustainable energy and uh yeah that's that's something that we really need to fix collectively of news a few people won't need to fix that collectively and I I I'm sort of excited by what I see like the level of energy about this um with Millennials yeah younger people is I mean everyone can get it yeah so I do think it's it's a matter it's just a matter of time before um before this happens and the question is just

how long and in fact in terms of thinking of say the fundamental good of of Tesla's home City I would characterize it sort of fundamental good into what degree how many years did it accelerates uh yeah like electric vehicles and solar energy all that stuff would happen no matter what but it is but the fundamental good in historical context context can be measured by to what degree the the Tesla accelerate the admins in sustainable transport right now it's like if we were able to accelerate and find like a decade that would be they'll be amazing that'd be great