[音乐] 欢迎收看他的《与参议员泰德·克鲁兹一起裁决》，本·弗格森和你在一起，今天是我们与埃隆·马斯克的独家对话，这位企业家和创新者正在改变各个行业，并通过 DOGE 瓦解政府的浪费、欺诈和滥用，马斯克对技术和太空探索的不懈追求继续吸引着全世界的想象力，在本期节目中，我们将剖析一个打破传统边界、推动人类迈向新视野之人的思想与抱负，所以请和我们一起走进白宫，继续探索埃隆·马斯克扣人心弦的旅程，这位现代先驱的革命性理念必将重新定义明天，今天真是非常有趣的一天，CER，因为我们有一位特别的嘉宾，而且我们身处一个特别的地方，我要

让你来完成剩下的介绍，嗯，我们现在就在白宫，我们和我的朋友埃隆·马斯克在一起，他真的没做什么事，也没制造任何新闻，而且，呃，也没人注意到，是啊，这种影响，欢迎你，埃隆，谢谢，天啊，呃，是的，哇，我只想说，从来没有乏味的时刻，从来没有乏味的时刻，总统就职后的前50天，实在太夸张了，而你度过的前50天，我，我觉得从来没有人能像你在一开始这样产生影响，让我，让我先问一个你非常了解的问题，哪个更糟，你在 Twitter 发现的烂摊子，还是你在联邦政府发现的烂摊子，嗯，很难有东西能和联邦政府较量，呃，联邦

政府，我、我猜你进来时已经认定情况很糟，它比你预想的更糟吗？它、它确实比我预想的更糟，但好的一面是，这意味着有更多改进的机会。所以你看，如果往好处想，嗯，联邦政府支出实际上有很多改进的机会，因为它实在太糟了。嗯，如果它、如果这是一艘管理良好的船，就很难再改进。所以，比如，但是、但是你，所以、所以现在就像人们说的，嗯，你、你要怎么想办法在联邦政府省钱？嗯，这就像待在一个房间里，墙壁、屋顶和地板全都是靶子，所以你朝任何方向开枪，对，而且你会、你可以打偏。哇，我相信你会同意，所以很多人都谈过

大概就是，就是你不可能、你不可能打不中，打不中，随便朝哪个方向都行。很多疯狂的支出，比如花200万美元在危地马拉做变性手术，一项必不可少的，嗯，你知道，跨性别小鼠，还有伊拉克的《芝麻街》。其中很多都引起了关注，但有些事情你跟我说过，比如，跟我们讲讲计算机许可证和政府机构吧。是的，所以我们做的大部分事情，你不需要成为夏洛克·霍姆斯，好吗？这是非常明显的B、基础事项。所以在每一个政府部门，我说每一个，是因为我们还没有发现一个例外，嗯，软件许可证多得太多了，嗯，还有媒体订阅，意思是软件许可证和媒体订阅的数量远远多于部门里的人员数量

就像你说的，一个有15,000人的机构可能有30,000个许可证。是的，而且即使在这15,000名员工中，也有相当一部分人没有使用过许可证，从未登录或使用过、使用过那个应用程序。是的，我们发现了整整一些，呃，软件许可证或媒体订、订阅的情况，其中登录次数为零。所以它本来，而我们却还在为它付费。是的，政府为数千个软件许可证，呃，或媒体订阅付费，却从来没有任何人登录过，哪怕一次。或者比如信用卡，你们发现政府信用卡也有同样的情况。呃，我们发现信用卡数量是人员数量的2倍。能不能就，而且我仍然没有得到一个很好的解释，说明为什么会这样，而这些是额度为10,000美元的

卡，所以涉及很多钱。你发现的是无能，还是说，这就像是你发现了世界历史上最大的洗钱计划？听着，我认为主要是，如果你问，浪费和欺诈的比例是多少，是的，呃，在我、我看来，大概是80%浪费、20% FR。但但但但是，确实存在这种灰色地带。一个例、例子是，呃，我们看到有很多付款，呃，从财政部发出，却没有，嗯，付款代码，也没有付款说明。然后我们、我们正试、我们试图弄清楚那笔付款是什么，我们会看到，好吧，那份合同本应被终止，呃，但但有人忘了终止那、那份合同，于是那家公司继续收到钱。哇。那么这是浪费还是欺诈

是的，两者、两者都是，是的，是的。我的意思是，你知道，你得到了一些你本不该得到的东西，你本不该得到它，但你、但政府把它发给了你，而且政府里没有人要求你退回，或者就拿那笔1.

90亿美元的款项来说，那笔钱给了斯泰西·阿邦的一个假 NGO。简直荒唐透顶。解释一下那个故事。那、那就是腐败，我认为到那一步就是在给亲信送钱。1,000%，是的，是的。顺便说一句，她知道，比如当你拿到20亿美元时，你不会漏掉这件事，那不是、那不是意外。据称，那是用于，比如，呃，你知道，环保电器之类的东西，而到目前为止，他们用20亿美元发了大概、比如比如比如100台电器。那是非常昂贵的烤面包机。一台电器，那是 Subzero 冰箱。天哪，那可真不错。现在，因为这显然是我们发现的最大的，呃，诈骗漏洞之一，真正疯狂的是，呃，是、是政府可以把钱交给一个所谓的非营利组织，呃，几乎没有什么管控，然后那个，而且那里

那里随后不会对那个非营利组织进行审计，所以没有，所以这就是那种，你知道，1.的方式

90亿美元，Stacy ABS，他们随后给自己发极其奢华、简直疯狂的薪水，把一切开支都记到、记到那个非营利组织名下，嗯，你知道，购买私人飞机和住宅以及各种东西。像国王和王后一样生活。是的，花纳税人的钱。正确。你提到这种事情正在大规模发生，不只是1个或2个，我们现在到处都看到了这种情况。你跟我说过的一件事，是、是你所称的财政部的魔法货币计算机。那么，跟我们讲讲，因为在你、你提起之前，我从未听说过那个。好吧，所以你可能以为这些、那些政府计算机，呃，像是都会彼此通信，它们会同步，它们会把流向某处的资金加总起来，而且它是，你知道，嗯，它是连贯的，那、那、那，你知道，存在，嗯，而且

而且、而且那些数字，比如呈交给你这位参议员的数字。是的。实际上是真实数字。人们会这么以为。人们会这么以为。它们不是。是的。好吧，嗯，我的意思是，它们并非完全错误，但在某些情况下可能会偏差5%或10%。嗯，所以，呃，我把任何能够直接凭空造钱的计算机称为魔法货币计算机，最好的魔法货币。那么它是怎么运作的？它就是发出付款。你说财政部大概有11台这样的计算机，正在发出数万亿美元的、的付款。它们大多在财政部，呃，有些在 HHS，有些在，有1台或2台在国务院，呃，DOD 有一些。我想我们现在已经发现了14台魔法货币计算机。好吧。它们就是凭空把钱发出去。你有能力看出

杠杆点在哪里，以及事情实际上是如何发生的。所以我记得大概是在今年选举前的9月或10月，我们不知道谁会获胜，而我、我当时在你位于奥斯汀的房、房子里，我们在谈这件事，而、而、而你说，你、你、你说，听着，我、我、我不想要华盛顿的工作。你说，我想要的只是每台计算机的登录权限。而、而我记得当时觉得这听起来有点奇怪，好像我就是没明白。我不得不说，这件事有趣的地方是，如果我当时会想，好吧，要怎么改革政府，比如传统的思考方式是，好吧，给我一张组织结构图，让我和那些管理各机构的人坐下来谈，而、而你立刻看到的是

要理解真正发生了什么，就要进入支付系统，进入计算机。是的。比如，比如为什么，为什么进入计算机对于理解实际发生的事情如此关键？嗯，政府是由计算机运行的。所以你有，嗯，本质上有数百台计算机在实际运行政府，嗯，而如果你想知道，你知道这件事吗，Ben？不知道。比如，是的。所以当某个人，比如即便总统发布一项行政命令，它也会经过一大群人，直到最终在某处的一台计算机上得到执行。如果你想知道会计方面的情况，你正试图核对县，并消除浪费和欺诈，你就必须能够分析计算机数据库，否则

你无法弄清楚，嗯，因为你所做的只是询问一个人，然后这个人会去问另一个人，再问另一个人，最后通常会问某个承包商，而这个承包商又会请另一个承包商在计算机上执行查询。哇。实际运作方式就是这样。所以它深入很多层，嗯，因此，核对数据库并消除浪费和欺诈的唯一方法，就是，嗯，真正查看计算机，看看发生了什么。所以你，那就是我所称的，那就像是，那就是我在有点隐晦地提到“重新编程《黑客帝国》”时所说的。你必须了解计算机那里正在发生什么，你必须核对计算机数据库，呃，才能识别浪费和欺诈。我不知道国会里是否有任何人理解这一点，当然也包括我自己

在内，理解计算机，尤其是数据所带来的杠杆作用。国会会考虑的是，给我一份关于你们支出情况的报告，而不是真正深入管道。我认为这一直非常引人入胜，它让你发现了一大堆根本没人知道的破事。是的，我的意思是，要让钱进入一个银行账户，它、它、它并不是说我们在向各地发送一卡车一卡车的现金。我们、这是一个、我们是在电汇，对吧？我们通过 a 系统或 Swift 系统汇款。所以要让资金流动，它会以电子方式流动。所以那、那就是你需要查看的东西，你需要查看真正的、的、的、的电子资金流动，还有 Tesla 和你的所有公司

你有会计账目，而且每一笔支出都按用途编码。联邦政府不是这样运作的，他们不会对钱的用途编码。他们不会，但他们没有、他们没有。而且、而且，比如你告诉我的其中一件事是，你说，如果任何公司像联邦政府这样记账，他们会逮捕那些高管，把他们关进监狱。是的，如果是一家上市公司，它会立刻被摘牌，它会失败，它被下令了，呃，而且公司的高管会被监禁。不幸的是，这就是联邦政府的 heiness 程度。这是故意的，还是你认为这是出于信心？再说一次，80%是、80%是无能，或者，20%是恶意。所以，如果、如果你看看 DOGE……

现在你看看政府以及你们正在发现的东西，你们甚至查到了多少百分比？其中有多少是火星，是你们甚至还没有到达的地方，因为你们在这里发现了这么多东西？我的意思是，有多少……你看起来是个讲时间线的人，当你说，好，我想进去，拿到所有这些，你知道，数字和东西时，我们距离终局还有多远，也就是你已经看过一切、能够处理一切并修复它？我的意思是，我们还要几年、几个月？呃，不是几年。嗯，我、我、我、我的意思是，我有相当的信心，我们能够消除1万亿美元的浪费和欺诈，呃，而这意味着，我们将在26财年实现、我们将实现净节省，显然该财年从10月开始，嗯，金额为、为1万亿美元，W，前提是我们……

被允许这么做，我们被允许继续，而且、而且我们的进展不受阻碍，而且、而且、而且我们对自己的所作所为非常公开。是的，你把它放在网站上了。在网站上，我们还能怎么更加透明？呃，实际上我们采取的每一项行动，无论大小，我们都会放到 Doge 点。

政府网站上，呃，而且我们会发布到 X 账号上。嗯，当人们对此抱怨时，我、我、我，而且他们说，哦，你们在成本方面做了什么。好吧，这些 con 中的哪一个……在光天化日之下做，每个人都确切知道你们在做什么。极端透明。是的，嗯，我认为从来没有任何事情如此透明。所以5年前，你是左翼的英雄，你很酷，你有电动汽车，你有太空，而在5年里，你已经……我可以、可以去参加好莱坞的派对，而不会遭人白眼。是的，事实上，呃，是的，而现在你甚至可能不会受邀。仍然会受邀，但我不知道自己是否应该去。我认为，说如今除了唐纳德·特朗普之外，左翼对你的憎恨超过地球上任何人，并不夸张。呃，是的，我似乎是第2名。

我的意思是，如果从他们的各种标志来判断，那是失常，是特朗普失常综合征和埃隆失常综合征。对你来说，从酷先生在短短几年内变成恶魔化身，这有点像猝不及防的急转。这种转变经历起来是不是、是不是有点奇怪？是的。他们为什么如此恨你？嗯，因为我们、我们显然正击中目标。如果 DOGE 没有效果，如果我们实际上没有消除大量浪费和欺诈，以及大量那种欺诈，呃，我的意思是，我们看到的欺诈压倒性地来自、来自左翼。我的、我的意思是，右翼并非为零，但，呃，这些 NOS 几乎全是左翼 NGS，例如它们正在获得资助，是的，嗯，所以他们、他们，因为 DOGE 正在……

发挥作用，嗯，而且 DOGE 正在消除很多浪费，而左翼里的人一直在利用那些东西，这、这、这就是归根结底的情况。而且、而且他们、他们、他们担心的最大一件事是，嗯，DOGE 将停止支付欺诈性的福利金。我的意思是，从社会保障、Medicare，呃，你知道，失业金、残障福利，呃，小企业行政登记贷款等所有东西，都停止向，呃，非法移民发放。这就是问题的关键。是的。好。这、这就是、这就是他们为什么、为什么真的打我的五脏六腑并希望我死，嗯。你认为那是数十亿美元、数千亿美元？你认为规模有多大？我认为在全国范围内，它是、它在……它在 wellth……

……的1000亿美元，也许2000亿美元。嗯，所以，呃，通过、通过福利金欺诈，民主党人得以吸……引并留住大量非法移民，而且、而且收买选民。并且收买选民，没错。这基本上是引进，我不知道，1000万、2000万人，呃，这些人因为政府救济而受制于民主党，并且会以压倒性多数投票支持民主党，这一点已经在加利福尼亚得到证明。这已经……这是一种选举策略。是的，是权力。是的，而且、而且要把摇摆州变蓝并不需要很多票。我的意思是，一个摇摆州往往可能只以1万、2万票的差距获胜。当然。所以，如果民主党人能引进20万非法移民，并随着时间推移让他们合……合法化，这还不算发生的任何作弊，因为确实存在一些作弊，呃，但即使没有……

作弊，如果你，如果你，如果你，如果你有，如果你引进的非法移民数量是摇摆州选民差额的10倍，那它就不再是摇摆州了，对吧，嗯，而那些大坝会赢得所有摇摆州，只是时间问题，嗯，美国将永久成为一个深蓝色社会主义国家，在那里，众议院、参议院，对，呃，总统职位和最高法院都将变成铁杆的 Den，然后他们会通过引进更多外国人来进一步巩固这一点，所以你，你无法靠投票摆脱它，他们的 ob 一党社会主义国家，而且会比加利福尼亚州糟糕得多，因为至少加利福尼亚州还受到一个事实的制约，那就是人们可以离开加利福尼亚州，你可以去得克萨斯州，对，正是，你就是这么做的，他们要让所有地方都变成加利福尼亚州，但更……

顺便说一下，在疫情期间，我和埃隆通了45分钟电话，他当时还在加利福尼亚州，我一边遛我的狗 Snowflake，一边努力说服你来得克萨斯州，加利福尼亚州的共产主义者受不了你，我们喜欢你，我们希望你来这里，而你当时并没有马上来，但没过多久你就来了，我是说，那些，那些，那些 co 行动 U 差点害死 Tesla，呃，因为他们，他们允许全国其他所有汽车工厂开工，但我们的工厂在加利福尼亚州，却不允许开工，哇，哇，所以他们差点害死 Tesla，那么从个人角度来说，你有没有后悔过，比如5年前你去奥斯卡颁奖礼，还是酷先生，而现在你，你每天都收到死亡威胁，比如你会不会，嗯，如今奥斯卡很无聊，我不会

想去，上帝保佑，他们提名的电影地球上根本没人看过，比如，比如他们到底能不能提名一部人类会去看的电影，我是说，过去几年出了多少部优秀电影，非常少，少得令人沮丧，是啊，非常少，上届奥斯卡来了又走了，我甚至都没看，没什么可看的，我，我很难过吉·哈克曼刚刚去世，因为《不可饶恕》非常精彩，但那是很久以前了，《不可饶恕》上映是很久以前的事了，你，你今天在这里以及之前都提到过，有人可能想除掉你，谈到应对死亡威胁，我们看到这不是我的想象，你只要看看社交媒体就知道，是啊，但比如，是不是因为非常明确，是啊，而且你看，我，我对此非常熟悉，而且

他们举着牌子，有人举着牌子参加示威，呃，说我必须死，你，你觉得这些只是疯子，还是你认为有外国的理智人士，你认为背后有外国实体吗，你认为这些威胁以及对 Twitter 的攻击背后有国内实体吗，比如，不是 Twitter，呃，是 Tesla，我是说，你知道，有人放火烧 Tesla 的充电站，你，你认为这是有组织、有资金支持的吗，是的，至少其中一部分是有组织、有资金支持的，嗯，我认为是由国内的，呃，你知道，基本上是美国的左翼组织，嗯，由，呃，左翼亿万富翁资助，本质上是这样，是像 ActBlue 之类的吗，ActBlue 是其中之一，嗯，你知道 Arabella，你知道经典的，它是由，你

知道，那，那，那些蓝色的，基本上就是左翼和秘密集团，这对比如你在 Tesla 打造的东西来说是一条多大的线，我是说，我记得 Tesla 刚推出时，买的人是不想拥有燃油车的人，很大程度上是出于环保原因，我开玩笑说，我就像，我是个得克萨斯州人，我永远都会有某种烧汽油的东西，现在我的孩子们，我的3个儿子全都觉得 Tesla 棒极了，Cybertruck 是他们想让爸爸买的车，这让我发笑，因为5年前我绝对想象不到这一点，而现在我看着，嗯，我们就在白宫，总统的 Tesla 就停在西翼外面，这是最完整的该死的事情，你改变了一代人，当你看着我的孩子，他们6岁和8岁，而且他们

会说，爸爸，买一辆 Cybertruck，而我正在考虑，这在某种奇怪的意义上是一个完整的循环，是啊，嗯，我确实有个理论，就是最具娱乐性的结果最有可能发生，所以，嗯，是啊，这似乎经常是真的，你看看什么，呃，什么样的命运转折，呃，嗯，我，能获得最高收视率的，如果这是，如果我们是一档电视节目，什么样的命运转折会带来最高收视率，那就很有可能会发生，嗯，我得说，如果，如果 ActBlue 和 Arabella 网络，ActBlue 是一个巨大的骗局，更上一层楼，你认为那是外国资金、中国资金吗，你，你认为 ActBlue 的钱来自哪里，你怎么查清这一点，嗯，它并不是来自，并不是来自一大群人，来自一场，一场公众支持的自发浪潮，呃，因为当个人

捐款人在 ActBlue 中被查看时，他们有一大堆结果显示是铁杆共和党人，对吧，一辈子从未捐过钱的人，所以你去追查其中一大群人，上面写着，哦，我捐了$166,000，而他们会说，我没有捐$116,000，你在说什么，我的一些共和党朋友发现自己出现在 ActBlue 名单上，他们会说，那绝对不是我，所以，如果确实能够证明他们资助了对 Tesla 充电站的燃烧弹袭击，那在客观上就是犯罪行为，那是在资助恐怖活动，而且，而且法规明确规定，燃烧装置符合条件，所以，向下是恐怖活动，是啊，让我问问 AI，10年后，因为 AI，一个

普通人的生活会有什么不同，嗯，10年是很长的时间，10年后，AI 或许能在认知方面把任何事都做得比人类更好，或许几乎可以，我认为按目前的进步速度，10年后 AI 会比最聪明的人类更聪明，是啊，是啊，还会有数量庞大的机器人，也就是人形机器人，顺便说一句，我得问问，为什么你的机器人看起来那么像《我的机器人》里那些令人毛骨悚然的机器人，那是故意的吗，还是只是，呃，我还希望他会说，是啊，就是为了逗你，它并不是要看起来像任何，以前的任何机器人，呃，我们会迭代设计，嗯，你，而且你会能够，机器人的许多部件都是装饰性的，你可以更换那种卡扣式的机器人装饰部件，让它看起来像某种东西

或者如果你愿意，嗯，所以最终会有数十亿个人形机器人，呃，所有汽车都会在10年内实现自动驾驶，呃，10年后，可能90%的行驶里程都会是，呃，自动驾驶。啊，哇，这么快。是的，5年后，所有行驶里程中可能有50%会是自动驾驶。现在，如果AI会比任何人都聪明，会有多少工作因此消失，人们又该做什么？如果有数百万人像那样失去工作，很多人对此感到恐慌也是可以理解的。嗯，我，商品，商品和服务将变得接近免费，所以人们并不会缺少商品和服务，嗯。那么为什么会这样，在AI世界里，为什么商品和服务会免费或接近免费？嗯，你会有，我不知道，拉

它，数百亿个机器人，呃，它们，它们会为你制造任何东西，或者提供你想要的任何服务，嗯，而且基本上几乎不花钱，嗯。并不是人们会，呃，会有更低的生活水平，实际上他们的生活水平会高得多。挑战将是，呃，满足感。你要如何从生活中获得满足感和意义？天网是真的吗？就是，就是，就是，你会看到那些关于AI的末日景象，杀手机器人消灭人类的可能性究竟有多大？可能有20%，也许10%。在什么时间范围内？之后到10年。所以很快，就是你，你，你看到了一个这种事可能发生的世界。是的，但我的意思是，你可以把它看成杯子有80%、90%是满的，意思是，我们有80%的可能性会让所有人都获得极度繁荣。现在，我想我的

看法是，我们正在竞赛，以赢得AI竞争。我们正在与中国竞赛，而我的看法是，如果会有杀手机器人，我宁愿它们是美国的杀手机器人，也不愿它们是中国的。我们现在获胜的可能性有多大？美国现在正在获胜吗？美国在未来几年里赢得对中国或其他任何一方的AI竞赛的可能性有多大？我认为美国很可能会赢，呃，之后就将取决于谁控制AI芯片的，呃，制造，也就是生产AI芯片的工厂，谁控制它们。如果它们被控制，如果其中更多工厂被中国控制，那么中国就会赢。更多正在制造AI芯片的工厂，你，你认为这会决定结果吗？是的。那在这方面，我们相较于中国做得怎么样？嗯，现在，呃，几乎所有先进AI芯片

的，呃，工厂，他们称之为晶圆厂，嗯，都在台湾。如果中国入侵台湾呢？距离，是的，如果，什么，如果中国，如果中国入侵台湾，世界会发生什么？嗯，如果他们在近期入侵，呃，世界将无法获得，呃，先进AI芯片，而目前100%的先进AI芯片都在台湾制造。我们能多快在美国把这种产能建起来？这对国家安全有多重要？我认为这对国家安全至关重要，呃，而我们做得还不够。你53岁。我比你大118天。我这辈子到底都干了些什么？我知道，对吧？53岁。她做得相当不错。嗯，所以71年是很棒的一年，而我是70年12月出生的，所以我只比你早一点，你是71年夏天出生的。嗯，我

出生在420之后69天。哇，我，我，我，我确实问过本，这是真的。好吧，你刚才，你刚才说了10个词。我确实问过本，我是不是该到场，掏出一根大麻烟，然后说，我，我们能超过罗根的观看量吗？但是，但是我很确定，呃，如果我们SP house，可能会引发丑闻。结果它其实像是一根巧克力雪茄。是的。让我问你，如果，如果今天是你在地球上的最后一天。是的。什么，什么，我不是说这真会发生，但如果是的话，你认为自己最大的遗产会是什么？在你所做的一切当中，100年后，你认为人们会记住什么？如果，如果，如果，如果是从零到今天。你会去太空吗？呃，在遥远的未来，100或1000年前，如果SpaceX把人类送上火星，那就是他们会记住我的

在此之前。好吧，最后一组问题。你遇到过的最聪明的人是谁？你和一些才华横溢的人来往，比如，比如，当你观察其他CEO时，除了你自己以外，你看到哪位CEO会说，该死，那家伙真厉害？拉里·埃隆非常聪明，嗯，所以可以说拉里·艾利森是最聪明的人之一，嗯，你知道，拉里·佩吉。我的意思是，有很多人都非常聪明，很难说。比如，你知道，我认为从某种程度上说，聪明要看做出来的事。所以，你知道，他们做了什么困难的，呃，而且意义重大的事？嗯，你知道，杰夫·菲奥斯做了很多困难且意义重大的事情，事情。嗯，我的意思是，有很多聪明的人类。我称他们为聪明，对人类而言聪明。很多人都属于对人类而言聪明的类别。好吧。

最后的快问快答。《星球大战》还是《星际迷航》？我在电影院看的第一部电影是《星球大战》，所以我认为它对我产生了深远影响。我当时6岁。我觉得，想象一下，如果你有生以来在电影院看的第一部电影是《星球大战》，它会让你脑子炸掉。最好的《星球大战》电影？嗯，《帝国反击战》。这是唯一客观正确的答案。首映当天，我和父亲排了3个小时的队去看。柯克还是皮尔德？呃，我两个都喜欢，但还是柯克。又一个客观正确的答案。顺便说一句，詹姆斯·T·柯克是共和党人，而皮尔德是民主党人，而且，而且我这么说时，左派会非常生气。是的。呃，最好的《星际迷航》电影？我的意思是原版，第一部《星际迷航》M，那部还行。《KH之怒》，其实两部，两部，两部《KH之怒》都相当不错，但，是的，原版

《KH之怒》，里卡多·莫诺班，复仇是一道最好冷着吃的菜，太空中非常寒冷。不过我要说，《拉松》客观上是正确答案，但，但是第4部是一匹黑马，他们回到旧金山，而且，而且，而且去找鲸鱼，然后，然后，你知道，斯科蒂拿起，SPS拿起嘴并对着它说话，然后说，键盘，多古雅啊。那是一匹黑马。好吧，最后一个问题。汉先开枪了吗？嗯，看起来他是后开枪的。我喜欢这个。这里是《Verdict》，顺便说一句，我向本道歉。所以本是个运动健将，曾在老密西西比大学打网球，所以，所以偶尔当，当我们稍微沉迷极客话题时，我喜欢看你们在那边沉迷其中。可能先结束了，因为那家伙还在问题上，我，他没打中他的，那个外星人没有用爆能枪打中。所以他为什么会

没打中他的爆能枪射击，一定是因为他先中枪了。不，他在近在咫尺的距离没打中一枪Bassel射击，除非他们被撞偏了，杀。但这是一个具有实际影响的问题，也就是汉·索洛究竟只是英雄，还是反英雄。所以，所以我属于汉先开枪这一派。我不喜欢被净化过的故事。他肯定必须先开枪，因为否则，为什么，为什么那个外星人会在近在咫尺的距离打偏？你会去外太空吗？这是你人生中的计划吗？是的，我想在某个时候去火星。而且，而且人们问过，呃，呃，我想不想死在Ms上，我说想，只要不是死于着陆撞击。这个回答非常好。空间站上的宇航员是政治犯吗？有些人是，因为，因为你本来可以载他们

回来，而，而且，而且乔·拜登纯粹出于政治原因说不。是的，我的意思是，你知道，网上对此有过一些，呃，争论，但问题在于，这是一个非常，一个非常高层级的决定，所以，呃，它其实甚至不是NASA的决定，只是，嗯，拜登白宫不希望一个支持特朗普的人，呃，在选举前夕营救宇航员，嗯，所以他们发了帖。嗯，如果你是那些宇航员之一，你肯定会对此相当恼火。嗯，如果他们是民主党人。是的。共和党人，是的。如果是民主党人，那就一切都好。说得通。嗯，所以我认为他们一个是共和党人，一个是民主党人，所以要看你问的是哪一个。人类会在哪一年首次，首次踏上火星？我认为最早会是29年。29年？是的，而且我认为

不会比那晚超过2到4年。而且那不是无人，那是一个人把脚踏上火星表面。是的，最好的情况会是29年。你认为找到外星生命或外星生命证据的概率有多大？我认为我们不会找到外星人。好吧。嗯，但我们会找到废墟吗？会找到遗迹吗？我们可能，我们可能会找到一个早已消亡的外星文明的废墟，这是可能的。我们也可能找到，呃，地下微生物生命，这是可能的。好吧，如果人类在29年登陆火星，那之后多久你会登陆火星？还有待观察，我不确定。重要的是，我们，呃，要尽快在MOS上建设一座能够自给自足的城市。呃，关键门槛是，这座城市在来自地球的补给船停止到来时，仍然能够继续发展、继续

繁荣。到那时，即使地球上发生某些事情，也可能，可能，可能不是第三次世界大战，但可能是，呃，一种严重的病毒。是的，是的。可能不是，比如说，文明可能会轰然消亡，也可能悄然消亡。或许文明会悄然消亡，而不是轰然消亡，嗯，或者只是失去了向火星发射飞船的能力。嗯，但是，所以你显然需要火星变得能够自给自足，并且能够自行发展，嗯，在来自地球的补给船停止到来之前。那，那是关键的文明门槛，一旦跨过这个门槛，呃，文明的可能寿命就会长得多。我们在技术上距离实现这一点，也就是建立一个能够自给自足的定居点，还有多近？

呃，在火星表面，我认为20年内可以做到，但那需要20年，所以我们不是在29，我们还没到那里。我们缺少什么？我们还不具备哪些重大技术？几个人在恶劣环境中的地表四处活动，并不能让它实现自给自足，对吧？所以你大约需要100万人，呃，也许还需要100万吨货物。所以，但你认为20年内火星上可以有100万人？是的。那么，当你想到火星上的100万人时，我们现在缺少的技术是什么？我们有能力获得水、获得食物、保障他们的安全吗？我的意思是，我们需要什么才能实现这一点？嗯，你需要重建地球完整的工业基础，所以，嗯

你知道，我们身处一个庞大的“perative”产业顶端，它始于采矿，呃，V系列的材料；这些材料要经过数百道精炼步骤。呃，显然我们种植食物，呃，我们种树，用树木制造东西。呃，你知道，你必须，你必须在M上建起这一切，而M是一个恶劣的环境。它，嗯，你知道，在M的赤道附近，温暖的夏日里，气温有时会升到零度以上。真的吗？那里相当寒冷。你要怎么为此做准备？嗯，一开始在火星上，你必须有一个，呃，一个生命维持居住舱，对吧？就像你需要……你不能直接住在户外，不能呼吸那里的空气。像穹顶一样，你觉得有可能吗？是的，玻璃穹顶之类的东西。你是否已经在火星上确定了一个可能的地点

成为理想的栖息地，呃，可能是 Arcadia planetara，嗯，是不错的选择之一，那是，呃，我的一个女……她就是因此取名 Arcadia，嗯，那是什么让它如此有吸引力，我大儿子的中间名是，呃，AR M。你想这件事已经很久了，如果你都围绕它给孩子取名的话。我最大的孩子的中间名基本上就是火星。你是什么时候有这个梦想的，比如，我是说，现在是 20，很快就是 2021 年了，这是一个几十年前就有的梦想。是啊，这个梦想。所以，比如你 10 岁的时候，有没有抬头说，我要去火星？没有，没有，我读了很多科幻小说，也给计算机编程，呃，但我卖出的第一个 fin off，第一个电子游戏，是一款名叫 Blastar 的太空电子游戏。而你做到的，你接触过的一切都取得了非凡的

成功，呃，是啊，是啊，你看，我是说，这在客观上就是事实。那么，是什么促成了这一点？因为还有其他聪明人，并不是这样，而他们盯着自己的 nebal，什么也不做。那么，你做了什么不同的事，让你如此高效？嗯，我想我有一种好奇的哲学。我想弄清宇宙的本质，理解宇宙，嗯，而为了做到这一点，我们必须前往其他行星，看看其他恒星系统，也许还有其他星系，嗯，也许找到其他外星文明，或者至少是外星文明的遗迹，嗯，更好地理解这个宇宙要去向何方、它来自哪里，以及对于那个答案，也就是宇宙，我们还不知道该提出哪些问题。所以，让我们

回到 25 年前，90 年代末，你在 PayPal。你是怎么把 PayPal 变成它后来那样的成功的，而这又帮助你开启了下一个、再下一个？是啊，所以我在大学学的是物理学和经济学，这是理解经济如何运作以及现实如何运作的良好基础，嗯，然后，嗯，我本来要去斯坦福大学攻读博士，研究，嗯，先进的，呃，超级电容器，实际上是把它作为一种，呃，用于电力交通的潜在储能方式，嗯，后来把这件事搁置起来，创办了一家互联网公司，嗯，基本上得出的结论是，互联网是那种罕见的事物之一，而我可以要么以研究生身份看着它发生，要么参与其中，而且我觉得自己随时都可以回去读研究生，你知道，研究生院大概会

还是一样，但，呃，我，我，我无法忍受只是看着互联网发生这种想法，所以我想参与建设它。于是我创建了一家互联网互联网公司。我们做出了互联网上最早的地图、路线指引、黄页、白页，嗯。实际上，95 年时，软件的第一个版本是我独自编写的，而且，嗯，大约在我毕业 4 年后，我们最终以大约 3 亿美元现金把它卖给了 compact Texas 公司，我想是。哇。所以我应该先说明一下，我毕业时背着大约 10 万美元的学生债务，所以那并不是，呃。是啊，你我都一样。是啊，是啊，我的在哪里？对吧，我知道。嗯，而且我最初抵达北美时，身上有 2,500 美元、一袋书，还有一、一袋衣服。好了，所以你把这家

公司以 3 亿卖掉了，这在多大程度上改变了你的生活？嗯，我拿到了 2,100 万美元。二十一点。嗯，不过我想在互联网上做更多事情，所以创办了一家名叫 X 的公司，它与一家名叫 Confinity 的公司合并，呃，那是 Peter Teal 和 Max Leon。是啊。而且，嗯，合并后的公司起初实际上仍叫 x.

com，但后来，后来我们把公司的名字改成了 PayPal，呃，因为经历了所有这些改名，事情有点让人困惑，但人们今天所知道的、称为 PayPal 的那家公司，其实是由我为它提交注册成立文件的。有意思。是啊，嗯，而且，而且如你所知，Peter Teal 和我在 90 年代中期就是朋友了。他去做了这件事，但你知道，他当时是纽约的一名公司律师，只是一个怀着许多梦想的年轻自由意志主义者，那时我和他成了朋友。所以，这一路真是一段不得了的旅程，呃，是啊，是啊。而现在，显然 Peter 参与了一场政变，呃，你知道，我们当时有点像参议院里的捅刀子局面，呃，在那里，嗯，呃，你知道，他们在 PayPal 对我做了 C、W，嗯，我现在有点。那么后来你们大家

和解了吗？是啊，是啊，是啊，我是说，我当时做了很多算是冒险的举动，我认为那些举动最终本会成功，但是，嗯，后来我进行了一次 two we 旅行，那既是一次双重筹款之旅，也是蜜月旅行，因为那年早些时候我没有度蜜月，所以我一边筹款，一边过、过 H 蜜月，但我当时有点是。顺便问一句，那进行得怎么样？奏效了，奏效了。你看。算是奏效了，筹到了钱。是啊，是啊。而且我们也度了蜜月。你看。所以，是啊，呃，但当形势令人害怕时，你不该离开战场，嗯，所以我当时不在那里，无法安抚部队的担忧，嗯，而且，嗯，不管怎样，呃，我们修补了关系，而且尽管如此一直是朋友，而且，嗯，是啊，你知道，这些天我会住在他家之类的

事情，所以显然我们是朋友，而且他也投资了我的大多数公司。好了，所以 2002 年，你，你创办了 SpaceX。比如，你怎么创办一家火箭公司？比如，第一天是什么样的，你会说，我想制造火箭，我想去火星？比如，你在第 1 天做什么？所以我认为，你必须从某种哲学前提出发，才能拥有，为了让，为了成为，为了保持高度积极性，你必须有某种，嗯，哲学基础。就我而言，那是，嗯，我们想扩大意、意识的范围和规模，以便更好地理解宇宙的本质，嗯，而为了扩大、扩大意识，我们需要超越单一行星。如果我们，如果我们在一颗行星上，那就，那就有

太大的风险。你知道，希望地球文明能繁荣到极其遥远的未来，但它也可能不会。始终存在某种风险：我们，呃，通过核战争自我毁灭，或者一颗巨大的流星像灭绝恐龙那样消灭我们。是啊。如果你把所有鸡蛋都放在一个篮子里，就始终存在某种风险。所以，如果，呃，我们成为多行星物种，情况会更好；而一旦我们成为多行星物种，下一步就是成为多恒星物种，让，呃，文明存在于、在、在许多不同的恒星系统中。所以在 2001 年，我不认为自己能，我不认为自己能卖掉一家火箭公司，所以我，我想从，嗯，PayPal 的那笔钱中拿出一些，在那种情况下，我想税后大约是 1.8 亿美元，差不多是这样，而且我想，你知道，我不

需要 1.8 亿美元，所以我要把其中一大笔花在，呃，一项慈善性的 MOS 任务上，让公众对重返火星，或者应该说前往火星感到兴奋。是啊。继月球之后，火星一直都会是目的地，对吧？嗯，事实上，如果你在 19，在 1969 年告诉人们，到 2025 年我们甚至都没有重返月球，更不用说，很难相信，更不用说火星了，他们会说，发生了什么？civilation，文明崩溃了吗？停下了？是啊，比如，比如，他们会觉得我们到现在还没去火星这件事不可理解，如果你在 69 年登月后告诉人们的话。你认为为什么 50 年来美国从未重返月球？嗯，我们销毁了土星 5 号火箭，那是，那是能够把人送上月球的火箭，后来有了航天

航天飞机，但它只能去低 th 轨道，嗯，然后确实一直没有任何东西取代任何，没有，没有制造出从那以后能够前往月球或火星的飞行器，直到 SpaceX 星舰火箭出现。是啊。所以如果没有交通工具，就去不了火星。所以我记得你和我第一次见面是在 2013 年，当时我还是个刚上任的小婴儿参议员，我还待在地下室办公室里。他们把新任参议员塞进地下室办公室，有点像入职欺凌。是啊，是啊。我正想说，听起来那里有 100 间参议院办公室，但有 6 个月你得待在地下室里，让你认清自己的位置。但这就像戴无檐小帽一样，他们只是，呃，他们想让你知道自己该待在哪里。你知道，我得说，现在已经进入第 13 年了，我认为这么做有很多智慧

，但当时你在地下室办公室里，我记得你带着 SpaceX 过来坐下谈，而当时空军不允许你们竞标发射卫星。你过来说，你看，我们有一家公司，我认为我们能把这件事做得非常好，但我们却被排除在外。想想 SpaceX 从那时到现在走过的历程，多少有点令人惊叹。呃，是的，很难相信这一切都是真的，嗯，因为最初，与我认为我们需要成为多行星物种的信念一致，我以为实现这一点的唯一途径是通过 NASA。所以，呃，而且我想，我当时想，嗯，如果，如果我只要能让公众对火星感到兴奋，那么他们就会执行一次火星任务，而且，呃，所以我的想法是要把一座小型温室送

呃，把种子放在脱水营养凝胶里，然后让温室着陆，给种子补水，然后你就会看到这些，这种吸睛镜头，吸睛镜头会是红色背景上的绿色植物，对，嗯，我最近还了解到，mon shot，呃，在其他一些领域有不同的含义，不过对，我很高兴你……非常非常不同的故事，但嗯，我想说的是，那、那、那个引人入胜的镜头，嗯，会是红色背景上的绿色植物，嗯，希望如果我们做了这样的事，那会让公众对火星感到兴奋，那会增加 NASA 的预算，然后我们就可以把人送上火星。所以你最初的梦想是让 NASA 做这件事？是的，不是你？不是，最最初的计划，呃，真的就是拿出从 PayPal 得到的一大笔钱

嗯，而且按照一些人的定义，我猜是把它浪费在一个没有、没有利润的非营利项目上。我想白白花掉我的一大笔钱，让 NASA 的预算增加，这样我们就能去该死的火星，对。哇。这就是我想要的。所以那就是神圣烤架，那就是我想要的。我当时就想……那你是什么时候改变的？去火星，那就是我想知道的。什么时候、什么时候你突然意识到，好吧，如果你想要……你将不得不自己做这件事？我告诉你，事情变得更疯狂了。好吧，事情变得更疯狂了。所以、所以后来我买不起任何美国火箭，因为如你所知，美国火箭实在太贵了。那些 bo locky rock lucky 火箭贵得离谱。我没有……即使有 1.8 亿，也绝不可能买得起。它们多少钱？

当时，嗯，那个，加上前往火星所需的额外一级，费用大约会是 8000 万，所以严格来说我买得起 1 枚，但我想买 2 枚，以防其中 1 枚不起作用。是的，所以，呃，然后我的钱就不够了，而我算是已经准备好，你知道，我不知道，浪费掉一半的钱，呃，而且我觉得如果还剩 9000 万，那也没问题，你知道，呃，但最好别全花掉。所以我去了俄罗斯 2 次，试图购买洲际弹道导弹。哦，有意思，进展怎么样，你要联系谁？呃，俄罗斯火箭军。他们会出售洲际弹道导弹吗？这是怎么运作的？是啊，你得给我们讲讲这个故事，然后我想知道，在俄罗斯什么都能买到。是的，我，我就像，请带我走一遍这个过程，我想知道你是怎么打那通电

话的，以及你到了那里之后，这是怎么运作的，你又怎么跟朋友说，你知道，听着，我，我要去俄罗斯买洲际弹道导弹的设备。我，我可能不会，你知道，这取决于实际情况，真的是，嗯。所以我想，当你，呃，当，呃，你了解到俄罗斯人因为，呃，你知道，salt 谈判，比如和平，因为基本上美国和俄罗斯之间达成了减少洲际弹道导弹总数的协议，这件事就显得没那么疯狂了。当然。俄罗斯实际上有义务报废一批他们的洲际弹道导弹。所以拿最大的那些洲际弹道导弹，你可以加装额外一级，把它们改造成火箭，然后把某样东西送往火星。所以，所以那些导弹足够大，只要再加 1 级就能到达火星，把一个小型载荷送往

火星。是的，所以那个 ss8，所以你试着购买 cbms，你成功了吗，还是没有，或者你意识到必须自己制造？他们不断对我提价，所以，嗯，因为我想，你看，反正他们都要把这些东西扔进废料场，你应该能拿到非常划算的价格。是啊，对。嗯，所以价格一开始是 400 万，然后下一次谈话时变成了 800 万，再下一次谈话时又变成了大约 100 万，我就想，顺便说一句，这还是在我们签合同之前。有其他竞标者吗？有其他竞标者吗？还是只有你一个人想买？我想，我不知道是否有其他出价，但他们没有提到任何其他出价。是的，但我当时就想，天啊，如果在合同签署之前价格就涨了这么多

签了。是啊，那合同签署之后我真的会被狠宰一笔。所以，所以我在那里变得相当沮丧。嗯，实际上有几次我们在莫斯科甚至吵到了互相大喊，有个家伙在俄罗斯冲我喊，我也用非常糟糕的方式冲他喊回去，你知道，我就像，所以你们全都，我的意思是，你们全都在莫斯科 ining me off。是啊，所以，呃，天啊，我当时真该把那段录下来，那肯定会成为他们的一段。你第一次在那里谈判待了多少天？我的意思是，这是不是一直在持续？是的，是的，这件事，这些谈话大概持续了 6 个月左右。哇。嗯，所以，嗯，然后最后一次去那里是和，呃，是和后来成为 Assa 局长的 Mike Griffin 一起。嗯，实际上我在这件事的过程

中意识到，我最初的前提是错的，美国其实非常有意愿去火星，但需要的是，它只是需要一种去火星的方式，嗯，一种负担得起，嗯，而且不会让预算崩溃的方式，你知道。嗯，正如你知道的，我们甚至无法抵达空间站，我们需要俄罗斯人把，把，把我们送到自己的空间站。那很令人难堪。真的很可悲。我不确定大多数美国人是否知道我们被宰得有多狠，比如我想他们把价格抬到了每个座位大约 9000 万美元。是的。哇。是的，而那个座位只花他们大约 10，显然那是在 Doge 之前，但那是唯一的，在 SpaceX 之前，但，但一个成本为他们 1000 万的座位却收 9000 万美元，这价格很高。是的，那是很多钱。是的。嗯，所以几个月前，你和我与总统一起去了 Bach

chica，参加星舰发射，你在 Bach chica 建造的一切令人难以置信。你知道，5 年前，那里还是得克萨斯州最南端的一片空旷海滩，sandar。是的。而现在那里是一座城市和一座工厂，你们以令人难以置信的精度每月制造 1 艘火箭飞船。是的。但我们当时在那里时，你对我说的一件事真的让我印象深刻，就是，就是，就是你谈到了你对知识产权的理念。我和很多 CEO 谈过，他们会说，是啊，我们努力保护我们的 IP，而你的做法非常不同。你对 IP、对本周专利的看法是什么？专利属于那些创新缓慢的人。我确实不知道还有哪个商界人士会说出那样的话，就像，就像那令人震惊

而，而，而，而埃隆当时在那里说的是，他说，你看，这些东西，我假定每个人都会窃取一切，但等他们偷走时，我们已经领先 5 代了，那就无所谓了。是的。嗯，在，在，在 Tesla，我们实际上把专利开源到公开，所以我们说，任何人都可以免费使用我们的专利。真的吗？嗯，是的。呃，我们在 Tesla 申请专利的唯一，我们申请专利只是为了避免专利流氓制造，制造麻烦。所以我们会试着向前看，说，好吧，专利流氓要去 Tri P 申请专利来阻止某些事情，我们会申请专利，然后把专利开源，让它免费。我的意思是，当我说本周专利时，现在确实有少数，呃，例如制药领域的情况，做一次 P3，呃，人体试验可能要花 10 亿美元，嗯，但随后

这种，这种药物的制造成本非常低。所以有些情况，在我看来，应该大幅减少可以申请专利的东西，嗯，而且，而且，而且，比如，因为申请专利的全部目的，是，是让创新最大化，而不是抑制创新。嗯。嗯，而且在我看来，这也许是个有争议的观点，嗯，大多数专利都会抑制创新，它们并不能帮助创新。嗯，但也有情况，我确实想，我想特别指出一些情况，比如像 face3 临床试验，可能花费 10 亿美元，但此后那些药物的制造成本只有几美元，而，而如果你随后可以立即花几美元复制那些药物，就不会有人为那 10 亿美元买单。搭便车者问题。搭便车者问题，完全正确。所以你必须解决搭便车者问题，但除此

之外就不应该有专利。想法很容易，你希望想法最大限度地流向人们，让大家更快到达那里，把事情做得更大。想法是容易的部分，呃，艰难的执行才是困难的部分。正如那句老话所说，灵感占 1%，即使不是少于 1%，而汗水占 99%。但我要说，在流汗这部分，你也真的该死地擅长，因为你正在制造，你知道，你创办的公司确实在制造东西。他们在造汽车，他们在造宇宙飞船，他们在造一些如果不能正常工作就会成为真正问题的东西。而且，而且你制造东西时的精度，你是怎么达到那种精度的？你是怎么做到的？你是怎么建立一种文化的？你，你非常擅长跳出框框思考，但，但

有意思的是，你在执行方面甚至可能更出色，也就是你如何如此有效地执行？嗯，我对所有事情都采用后物理、后原则的方法。并不是说我，我，我想把制造内包，只是我无法有效地把它外包。所以，呃，你知道，Tesla 最初的想法是，我们会把几乎所有制造工作都外包出去，呃，但后来发现，没有，没有可以承接制造外包的好公司，而确实没有，呃，真的真的没有。可行的外包制造实际上是规则的例外。嗯，而且，呃，随着时间推移，我们不得不把 Tesla 的几乎所有东西都内包，SpaceX 也是一样。我变得非常擅长制造，因为我不得不这样做，没有选择

到这个时候，我对制造的了解可能比以往任何，任何人类都多，因为我做过太多，我在太多不同领域制造过太多不同的东西。嗯，我想可能比以往任何人都多。听着，这听起来像是一个惊人的说法，但并不是一个疯狂的说法，而且，而且你还以某种方式同时运营 Tesla、运营 SpaceX、运营 X、运营无聊公司、运营 norlink，还在做 Doge。你每晚睡多长时间？平均大约 6 小时。所以大约 6 小时。所以，所以如果你说 3 或 4 小时，我也不会感到震惊。那么下一个问题是，你每天工作多少小时？我几乎在每一个醒着的小时里都在工作。而且，而且 Ben，他没有在这件事上开玩笑，就像埃隆和我刚开始互相了解

彼此，嗯，我提议说，嘿，找个时间一起吃晚饭吧，我不知道你还记不记得你说了什么，你说，我，我不吃晚饭，我其实不参加社交晚餐，对吧，我是说，对，你显然会吃东西，但意思是你不会花2个小时去餐厅，但那种想法就像，我，我不，但那只是很平淡地说出来的，为什么我要去吃晚饭，就像我，你，你工作，呃，是的，我真的只是想，我会在开会期间吃午饭和晚饭，边吃边继续开会。你觉得在你的职业生涯里，你有多少个晚上睡在办公室，按百分比算，你会说，我基本上就是得小睡一下，因为我的身体逼着我睡，然后我得快速高效地回去工作，而不去别的地方，嗯，我

猜这甚至是从第一家公司开始的，呃，sub2，这个名字很糟糕，但那是第一家互联网公司，嗯，我们当时租得起一间办公室，基本上就像是在一个漏水的阁楼里，每月500美元，而我们能找到的最便宜的，嗯，公寓是每月800美元，所以，就像，我和我兄弟两个人总共只有大约55,000美元，嗯哼，所以我们就想，我们不，我们，我们，我们就待在办公室里，是的，呃，所以我们弄了几张，嗯，可以变成床的沙发，嗯，然后我们会，呃，晚上算是睡在那里，之后我们只需要在有人来之前，呃，把，把床变回沙发，呃，然后我们，我们去路边的基督教青年会冲澡，所以就这样，那，那，那，那确实就是我们有几个月所做的事，呃，身体状态很好，你知道，呃

锻炼，为什么，嗯，我还记得帕洛阿尔托 Page Mill alino 的那家基督教青年会，所以那是很久以前了，所以一直以来，我不知道，我从没想过要数，但，呃，也许有几百天，我不知道。所以你现在是地球上最富有的人，你还睡在办公室吗？嗯，那是真的，也许火星上有，我们，我们会，我们会找到别人，但我认为，如果某人是一个国家的主权元首，事实上富有得多得多。你现在还睡在办公室吗？我确实在办公室睡过，是的。嗯，谢谢你，埃隆，这，这太棒了，而且，而且让我说，顺便说一句，我，我前天在 X 上发了一条，如果你正和埃隆喝啤酒，并且可以问他任何问题，你会问什么，收到了很多回复，是的，最

人们常见的回应是，是，是，说谢谢。听着，得州人和美国人民都感谢你所做的一切，你没必要忍受这些屁话，但你还是在做。我很感激，你为这个国家带来了巨大的改变。我感谢你，美国人也感谢你，谢谢。这对文明的未来至关重要，否则我也不会这么做。是的，又不是说我想收到死亡威胁，你知道。不，别忘了，我们每周一、周三和周五都会做这档节目，点击订阅或自动下载按钮。来自白宫，很高兴有你和我们一起参加《Verdict》，几天后再见，各位。[音乐]

[Music] welcome in his verdict with Senator Ted Cruz Ben Ferguson with you and today is our exclusive conversation with Elon Musk the entrepreneur and innovator who is transforming Industries and is dismantling government waste Fraud and Abuse with Doge must Relentless pursuit of technology and space exploration continues to capture the world's imagination in this episode we unravel the thoughts and aspirations of a man who defies conventional boundaries pushing Humanity towards New Horizons so join us in the white house as we continue to explore the riveting journey of Elon Musk a modern day Pioneer whose revolutionary ideas are set to redefine tomorrow today is a really fun day CER because we have a special guest and we're in a special place I'm going

to let you do the rest of the intro well we're in the white house right now and we're here with my friend Elon Musk who really has not been doing much of anything has not made any news is and uh nobody has noticed yeah the impact welcome Elon thank you holy crap uh yes wow let me just say never at dull moment never a dull moment the first 50 days the president has spent in office over the top and the first 50 days you've spent I I don't think there's ever been anyone to have an impact the way you have the beginning let me let me start with a question you know a lot about which was worse the mess you found at Twitter or the mess you found in the federal government well it's hard to compete with the federal government uh what surprised you about the federal

government I I assume you came in and assumed it was bad is it worse than you expected it it is worse than I expected but on the plus side that means there's more opportunity for improvement so look if you look on the bright side um there's there's actually a lot of opportunity for improvement uh in federal government expenditure because it's so bad um if it if it was a well-run ship it would be very difficult to improve so like but but you so so now it's like people say well how how will you figure out how to save money in the federal government well it's like being in a room where the the walls the roof and the floor are all Targets so you shoot in any direction yeah and you're wi you can miss wow I'm sure you would agree so a lot of folks have talked

about like like you can't you can't miss can't miss just go any direction a lot of the crazy expenditures things like like two million bucks for sex change surgeries in Guatemala an essential um you know transgendered mice and and Sesame Street in Iraq a lot of that has gotten attention but some of the stuff you've told me about but like tell us about computer licenses and government agencies yeah so most of what do is finding you don't need to be Sherlock Homes okay it's very obvious B basic stuff so in in every govern Department I say every because we've not yet found a single exception um there are far too many software licenses um and and media subscriptions meaning many more uh software licenses and medum subscriptions than there are humans in the

department like you were saying like an agency with 15,000 people might have 30,000 licenses yes and even of the 15,000 employees a good chunk of them hadn't used the license had never logged on or used the used the application yes we're found entire uh situations of of software licenses or media sub subscriptions with there were zero logins so it had and yet we were paying for it yes the government was paying for thousands of licenses of software uh or media subscriptions and no one had ever logged in even once or like credit cards you found the same thing with government credit cards uh we found that there are twice as many credit cards as there are humans could just and I still don't have a good explanation for why this is the case and these are $10,000

limit cards so a lot of money is it incompetence that you're finding or is this like the biggest money laundering scheme in the history of the world that you're finding look I think it's mostly if you say look what's the waste to fraud ratio yeah uh in my my opinion it's it's like 80% waste 20% FR but but but but you do have these sort of gray areas y example example would be so uh we saw a lot of payments uh going out of Treasury that had no um payment code and no explanation for the payment and then we we we're tra we're trying to figure out what that payment is and we'd see that okay that contract was supposed to be shut off uh but but someone forgot to shut off that that contract and so the company kept getting money wow now is that waste or fraud

yeah both both yeah yeah I mean you know you're getting something you're not supposed to get you're not supposed to get it but you but the the government sent it to you and nobody from the government asked for it back or take for example the one the $1.

9 billion given to Stacy abon's a fake NGO utter Insanity explain that story that's that's just corrupt I think that's paying off cronies at that point 1,000% yeah yeah and by the way she knew like when you get $2 billion you don't miss that that's not that's not an accident that's allegedly it was for like uh you know environmentally friendly appliances or something and they've given like like like 100 appliances so far for $2 billion it's very expensive toaster an appliance that's Subzero fridge boy it's nice right now since this just obviously one of the biggest uh scam Port holes we've uncovered which is really crazy is uh is that is that the government can give money to a so-called nonprofit uh with with very few controls and then that and there's

there's no auditing subsequently of that nonprofit so there's no so this is way with the you know 1.

9 billion Stacy ABS who's they then give themselves extremely lavish like insane salaries expense everything to the to the nonprofit um you know buy Jets and homes and all sorts of things live like kings and queens yes on the taxpayer down correct you you mentioned this is happening at scale it's not just one or two we're seeing this everywhere now one of the things you told me about is is what you called Magic Money computers at the well so tell us about because I never heard of that until you you brought that up okay so you may think that these that that the government computers uh like all talk to each other they synchronize they they add up what funds are going somewhere and it's you know um it's coherent that that that the you know there's um and

that and that the numbers for example that you're presented as a senator yeah are actually the real numbers in one would think one would think they're not yeah okay um I mean they're not totally wrong but they're probably off by 5% or 10% in some cases um so uh I call a magic money computer any computer which can just make money out of th a best magic money so how does that work it just issues payments and you said there something like 11 of these computers at treasury that are that are sending out trillions in in payments they're mostly a treasury uh some are with the sum at HHS some at there's one one or to at State uh there's some at DOD I think we found now 14 Magic Money computers okay they just send money out of nothing you have an ability to see

where leverage points are and and how things actually happen so I remember back I think it was September or October of this year before the election we didn't know who was going to win and I I was at your h house in Austin we were talking about it and and and you said you you you said look I I I don't want a job in in Washington you said all I want is the login for every computer and and I remember thinking at the time that sounded kind of weird like I just didn't get it and I have to say what what's interesting on this if I would have thought like okay how do you reform government like sort of the traditional way to think about it is okay give me an orc chart let me sit down with the people who are running agencies and and what you saw immediately is

to understand what's really going on get to the payment systems get to the computers yeah like like why are are why is getting to the computer so critical to understanding what's actually happening well the government is run by computers so you've got um essentially several hundred computers that effectively run the government um and if you want to know did you know that Ben no like yeah so when somebody like even when the president issues an executive order that's going to go through a whole bunch of people until ultimately it is implemented at a computer somewhere and if you want to know what what the situation is with the accounting you're trying to reconcile County and get rid of waste and fraud you must be able to analyze the computer databases otherwise

you can't figure it out um because all you're doing is asking a human who will then ask another human ask another human and finally usually ask some contractor who will ask another contractor to do a query on the computer wow that's how it actually works so it's many layers deep um so the only way to reconcile the databases and get rid of waste and fraud is to um to actually look at the computers and see what's going on so you that's what I call that's like that's what I when I sort of cryptically referred to reprogramming The Matrix you have to understand what's going at the computers you have to reconcile the computer databases uh in order to identify the waste and fraud I don't know that there was anyone in Congress who understood certainly myself

included who understood the leverage that comes from the computer and the data in particular that that Congress would think about give me a report on what your expenditures are rather than actually getting into the pipes and I think that has been fascinating that it's let you uncover a bunch of crap that just nobody knew yes I mean in order for money to go to a bank account it it's it's not like we're sending truckloads of cash all over the place we're it's a we're wiring money right we're sending money through the a system or through the Swift system so in order for money to flow it's going to flow electronically so that's that's what you need to look at you need to look at the the the the actual electronic money flows and Tesla and all your companies

you have accounting and you have every expenditure you have it coded for what it's going for federal government doesn't work that way they don't code with the money's going for they do not but they didn't they didn't and and like one of the things that that that you told me you said if any company kept its books the way the federal government does they'd arrest the officers and put them in jail yes if it was a public company it would be delisted immediately it would fail it's ordered uh and the the officers of the company would be imprisoned that's level of heiness in the federal government unfortunately it's deliberately or do you think this is in confidence again it's 80% it's 80% incompetence or and 20% malice so if if you look at if you look at Doge

now and you look at the government and what you're finding what percentage have you guys even gotten to and how much of it is Mars where you haven't even gotten there yet because there's so much you're finding out here I mean how many you seem like a timeline guy when you say all right I want to get in there and get all these you know numbers and things how far are we from the ingame where you've seen it all been able to process it all and fix it I mean are we years away months away uh not years um I I I I mean I'm reasonably confident that we'll be able to get a trillion dollars of waste and fraud out uh and that that meaning that it will have we'll have a net Savings in FY 26 which starts in October obviously um of of a trillion dollars W provided we

allowed to we're allowed to continue and and we're and our progress is not impeded and and and we're very public about what we do yeah you put it on the website on the website how we could be more transparent uh literally every action we do small or large we put on the Doge dot.

gov website uh and we post on on the X handle um and when people complain about it I I I and they say oh you're doing something on cost well which of these con doing it in the daylight everyone knows exactly what you're doing extreme transparency yeah um I don't think it's anything's been this transparent ever so five years ago you were a hero to the left you were cool you had electric cars you had space and in five years you've g go I could could go to a party in Hollywood and not get dirty looks yeah in fact uh yeah a and now you might not even get invited still get invited but I don't know if I should go I don't think it's an exaggeration to say today after Donald Trump the left hates you more than any person on Earth uh yes I appear to be number two

I mean if you're judged by the various signs they it's derangements it's Trump derangement syndrome and Elon derangement syndrome how is it that for you that's a little bit of whiplash of going from being like Mr Cool to the devil incarnate in just a couple of years is that is that kind of weird to experience that transformation yes why do they hate you so much well because we're we're clearly over the target if Doge was ineffective if we were not actually getting rid of a bunch of Wast and fraud and a bunch of that fraud uh I mean the fraud we're seeing is over overwhelmingly on the on the left m i mean there's it's not zero on the right but uh these NOS are almost all leftwing NGS that are being funded for example y um so they they because doge is being

effective um and doge is getting rid of a lot of waste and for that they were that people in left were taking advantage of that that's that's that's what it comes out to and and the the the single biggest thing that they're that they're worried about is that um doge is is going to turn off fraudulent payments of entitlements I mean everything from Social Security Medicare uh you know unemployment disability uh small business administ registration loans turn them off to uh illegals this is the Crux of the matter y okay this is this is the this is the thing that why why they really hit my guts and want me to die um and do you think that's billions hundreds of billions what do you think the scale is of that I think across the country it's it's in it's wellth

of 100 billion maybe 200 billion um so uh by by using entitlements fraud the Democrats have been able to attra ract and retain vast numbers of illegal immigrants and and buy voters and and buy voters exactly the it basically bring in I don't know 10 20 million uh people who are beholden to the Democrats for government handouts and will vote overwhelmingly Democrat as has been demonstrated in California this is over it's an election strategy yes it's power yes and and it doesn't take much to turn the swing States blue I mean often a swing state might be won by 10 20,000 votes sure so if the Dems can bring in 200,000 illegals and over time get them leg legalized not not counting any cheating that takes place because there is some cheating uh but even without

cheating if you if you if you if you have if you bring in illegals that are 10x the voter differential in in a swing state it will no longer be a swing state right um and the the dams will win all the swing States just a matter of time um and America will be permanent deep blue socialist state where at the the house the Senate yep uh the presidency and the Supreme Court will all go hardcore Den they will then further cement that by by ex bringing in even more aliens so you you can't vote your way out of it their ob one party socialist State and it'll be much worse than California because at least California is mitigated by the fact that someone can leave California you can go to Texas yeah exactly you did they going to make everywhere California but wor

by the way the middle of the pandemic I spent 45 minutes on the phone with Elon he was still in California I was walking my dog Snowflake and trying to convince you come to Texas the commies in California can't stand you we love you we want you here and you didn't quite go then but you went not that long afterwards I mean the the the co actions U almost killed Tesla uh because they they let every other Auto Plant in the country was allowed to open but ours which was in California was not allowed to open wow wow so they almost killed Tesla so as a as a personal matter did do you ever regret it like five years ago you go to the Oscars and Mr Cool and now you're you've got death threats every day like do you well these days the Oscars are boring I wouldn't

want to go God bless the movies they nominate no one on earth has ever seen like like could they actually nominate a movie that human beings go watch I mean the how many great movies have come out in the last several years very few depressingly few yeah very few the last Oscar came and went I don't even watch it there's nothing to see I I was sad that Jee Hackman just passed away because Unforgiven was spectacular but that was a long time ago that un forgiven came out you You' mentioned today here and before about the possibility of someone wanting to take you out dealing with the death threats we see it's not in my imagination you could just look on social media yeah but like is is it because very clear yeah and look I'm I'm very familiar with that and

they've got signs people with signs and demonstrations uh saying that I need to die do do you think are these just whack jobs or do you think there are foreign sane people do you think there are foreign entities behind this do you think there are domestic entities behind the the threats and also the attacks to Twitter like or not Twitter uh Tesla I mean you know you're getting Tesla's charging stations lit on fire do do you think that's organized and paid for yes at least some of it is organiz has paid for um I think by domestic uh you know what basically leftwing organizations in America um funded by uh leftwing billionair essentially is it like act blue or what act blue is one of them um you know Arabella you know the classic it's funded by the you

know the the the blue basically the the left wing and cabal how big of a thread is this to like what you build at Tesla I mean I remember when Teslas came out it was people that they didn't want to have gas cars a lot of it was environmental reasons I jokingly said I was like I'm a Texas guy I'm always going to have something that burns gas my kids now all three of my boys think that the that Teslas are awesome the Cyber truck is the car they want their dad to buy which I laugh because I never could have imagined that five years ago and now I'm looking at well we're at the White House in the president's Tesla parked right outside the West Wing which is the fullest damn thing you've changed a generation when you look at my kids are six and eight and they're

going dad buy a cyber truck and I'm considering it that's a that's a Full Circle in a weird way yeah well I do have this theory that the most entertaining outcome is the most likely so um yeah it seems often to be true you see like what uh what twist or turn of Fate uh well I the highest ratings if this was if we were a TV show what twistter fate would generate the highest ratings that there's a good chance that happens well I will say if if act blue and Arabella networks act blue is a huge scam next level do you think it's foreign money Chinese money where where do you think the money in act blue is coming from how do you figure that out well it's not coming from the in from a whole bunch of from a a ground swell of public support uh because when individual

donors looked at in act blue they a bun turn to be like die hard Republicans right people have never given money in their life so you're going to track down a bunch of these people where it says oh I gave $166,000 and they're like I don't give $116,000 what are you talking about this this Republican friends of mine found themselves on the ACT blue list and they're like it defin wasn't me so that's if it can act actually be shown that they are funding firebombing of Tesla charging stations that's objectively a criminal act that that is funding terrorist activity and and the statutes make clear that an incendiary device qualifies so down is a terrorist activity yeah let me ask AI in 10 years how is life going to be different because of AI for for just a

normal person well 10 years is a long time in 10 years probably AI could do anything better than a human can cognitively probably almost I think in 10 years based on the current rate of improvement AI will be smarter than the smartest human yeah yeah there will also be a massive number of robots so humanoid robots by the way I got to ask how come your robots look so much like the creepy robots for my robot was was that intentional or just uh I was hoping he was gon to say yeah just to mess with you it's not meant to look like any any prior robot uh and we'll iterate the design um you and you you'll be able to have a lot of the robot parts are cosmetic you'll be able to switch out the kind of Snap-on cosmetic parts of the robot make it look like something

else if you'd like um so there will be ultimately billions of humanoid robots uh all cars will be self-driving in 10 years uh in 10 years probably 90% of miles driven will be uh autonomous huh wow that fast yeah in 5 years probably 50% of all miles driven will be autonomous now if AI will be smarter than any person how many jobs go away because of that and what do people do if you've got millions of people that are losing their jobs like that a lot of people are understandably freaked out about that well I Goods goods and services will become as close to free so it's not as though people will be wanting in terms of goods and services um so why is that what why are goods and services free in an AI world or close to free well you have I don't know pull

it tens of billions of robots uh that that they will they will make you anything or provide any service you want um for basically next to nothing um it's it's not that people will be uh will have a lower standard of living they'll have actually a much higher standard of living the the challenge will be uh fulfillment how do you derive fulfillment and meaning in life is Skynet real like like like you get the apocalyptic visions of AI how real is the prospect of of Killer Robots annihilating Humanity 20% likely maybe 10% on what time frame after to 10 years so soon like you you you see a world where that's possible yeah but I mean you could look at it like the glasses 80 90% full meaning like 80% likely will have extreme prosperity for all now I guess my

view we're in a race to to win AI we're in a race with China and my view is if they're going to be killing robots I'd rather they be American Killer Robots than Chinese How likely are we winning right now is America winning right now and How likely is America to win the race for AI Vis China or anyone else for the next few years I think America is likely to win uh then it will be a function of who controls the AI chip uh fabrication the factories that make the AI chips who controls them if they're control if more of them are controlled by China then China will win more of the factories that are making the AI chips you you think that will determine it yes and how are we doing versus China on that front well right now uh almost all the advanced AI chip

uh factories they call them Fabs um are in Taiwan and what if China invades Taiwan miles away from yeah if what what happens if China if China invades Taiwan what happens to the world well if they were to invade in the near term uh the worlder would be cut off from uh Advanced AI chips and currently 100% of advanced AI chips are made in Taiwan how fast could we put that online in America and how important is that for National Security I think it's essential for National Security uh and we're not doing enough you're 53 years old I'm 118 days older than you by what the hell have I done in my life I know right 53 years old she did pretty well well so 71 was a great year and I was December 70 so I was just just right before you were the summer of 71 um I

born 69 days after 420 wow I I I I did ask Ben this is true all right you just you just open up 10 words I I did ask Ben should I show up and pull up a joint and say c can we beat Rogan's views but but I was pretty sure uh it might cause a scandal if if we SP house it just turned out to be like a chocolate cigar yeah let me ask you if If Today Was Your Last Day on Earth yeah what what I'm not suggesting it's going to be but if it were what do you think your biggest Legacy would be if everything you've done a hundred years from now what do you think people would remember if if if if it were zero to today and will you ever go to space uh in the in the distant future 100 or thousand years ago if SpaceX got humans to Mars that's what they would remember me

before all right final set of questions who's the smartest guy you've ever met you hang out with some brilliant people like like when you look what's a CEO you look at other than yourself what CEO do you say damn that guy's good Larry elon's very smart um so say Larry Alison's one of the smartest people um you know Larry pagee I mean there are a lot of people that are very smart it's hard to say like you know I think to some degree smart is as smart does so you know what if what have they done that is difficult uh and significant um you know Jeff feos has done a lot of difficult and significant things things um I mean there are a lot of smart humans I call them smart smart for a human a lot of people who are in the smart for a human category all right

final lightning round Star Wars or Star Trek the first movie I saw in the theater was Star Wars so I think it had a profound effect on me I was six years old I think imagine if first movie you ever see in a theater it's Star Wars it's going to BL your mind best Star Wars movie um Empire Strikes Back the the only objectively right answer I stood in line for three hours with my dad to see it on opening day Kirk or peard uh I like them both but Kirk again objectively right answer by the way James T Kirk is a Republican and peard is a Democrat and and the left gets very mad when I say that yeah uh best Star Trek movie I mean the original the first Star Trek M that's in okay R of KH actually both both both Wrath of KH were pretty good but yeah the original

Wrath of KH Ricardo monoban revenge is a dish best served cold it is very cold in space although I will say rathon is objectively the right answer but but four is a sleeper when they go back to San Francisco and and and go find the whales and and you know Scotty picks up SPS picks up the mouth and talks to it then goes a keyboard how quaint that's a sleeper all right last question did Han shoot first H it seemed like he shot second I like it this is verdict and by the way I apologize Ben so Ben was a jock and played tennis at Old Miss and so so occasionally when when we geek out a little I love watching y'all geek out over there might have first over because the guy still on the question I he missed his the alien missed his Blaster shot so why did he

missed his Blaster shot must have been because he got shot first no he's missing a point blank Bassel shot if unless they got knocked off kill but it's a question of real consequence which is is Han Solo simply a hero or an anti-hero and and so I'm in the Han shot first category I don't like sanitized stories he would have had to have shot first because otherwi why why would the alien miss a Point Blank Range are you ever going to go to outer space is that say in your life yeah I'd like to go to Mars at some point and and people have said uh uh do I want to die on Ms and I say yes just not on impact now that's a very good answer the astronauts on the space station are they political prisoners some of them are because because you could have given them

a ride back and and and Joe Biden said no purely for politics yeah I mean you know there's been some uh debate about this online but the thing is that it was very a very high level decision so uh it wasn't really even a NASA decision it was just that um the Biden White House did not want to have someone who was Pro Trump uh rescuing astronauts right before the election um so they posted well if you're one of those astronauts you got to be pretty pissed off about that well if they're a Democrat yes Republican yes if a Democrat like everything's fine fair enough um so I think one of them is a republican one is a Democrat so depends which one you asked what year does man first set set foot on Mars I think the soonest would be 29 29 yes and I don't think

it's more than two to four years beyond that and that's not an unman that's that's a human being putting his foot on the surface yes best case would be 29 and what do you what do you put the odds of finding either alien life or evidence of alien life I don't think we're going to find aliens okay um but do we find ruins do we find remnants we may we may find the ruins of a long dead alien civilization that's possible and we may find uh Subterranean microbial life that's possible all right if man lands on Mars in 29 how soon after that do you land on Mars it remains to be seen I'm not sure the important thing is that we uh build a self-sustaining City on MOS as quickly as possible uh the the key threshold is when that City can continue to grow continue

to prosper even when the supply ships from Earth stop coming at that point even if something would happen on Earth it might might it might not be World War III but it might be that uh a bad virus yeah yeah it might not be say like like say civilization could die with a bang or whimper it may be that Civilization dies with a whimper rather than a bang um or and simply loses the ability to send ships to Mars um but so you OB need Mars to be become self- sustaining and be able to grow by itself um before the resupply ships from Earth stop coming that that is the critical civilizational threshold Beyond which uh the probable lifespan of civil ation is much greater and how close are we technologically to be able to do that to have a self-sustaining settlement

uh on the surface of Mars I think it can be done in 20 years but it would take 20 years so we're not in 29 we're not there what are we missing what are the big Technologies we we don't have a few people running around the surface in a hostile environment is not going to make it self-sustaining right so you're going to need on the order of a million people uh maybe a million tons of cargo so but you think we could have a million people on Mars in 20 years yes and and what are what's the technology we're missing right now when you think about a million people on Mars do we have the ability to get water to get food to to keep them safe what I mean what what do we need to make that happen well you need to recreate the entire base of Industry of Earth so um

you know we're here at the top of of a massive perative industry that starts with mining uh V array of materials those materials going through hundreds of steps of refinement uh we grow food obviously uh we grow trees we make things out of the trees uh there's you know you've got to you've got to build all that on M and M is a hostile environment it's um you know it sometimes gets above zero on a warm summer day near the equator on M really it's quite cold and how do you prep for that well in the beginning on Mars you have to have a uh a life support habitation module right like you need you can't just live outdoors you can't breathe the air like a dome you think is likely yeah glass domes type of thing have you identified a location on Mars that is likely

to be ideal for a habitat uh what it might be Arcadia planetara um is one of the one of the good options that's uh one of my da is his named Arcadia after that um and what makes that attractive my eldest son's middle name is uh AR M you've been thinking about this for a long time if you're naming your kids around it my eldest kid is middle name is essentially Mars when did you get the dream like I mean it's 20 now 2021 soon this is a decades old yeah dream so like when you were 10 did you look up and say I'm going to Mars no no I read a lot of science fiction books and programmed computers uh but the first fin off the first video game that I sold was a space video game called blastar and you've managed everything you've touched has been an extraordinary

success uh yeah yeah look I mean that's just objectively right so what what has led to that because there are other smart people that that's not true and they gaze at their nebal and they don't do anything so what what do you do differently that makes you so effective well I suppose I have a philosophy of curiosity I want to find out the nature of the universe understand the Universe um and in order to do that we have to travel to other planets see other star systems maybe other galaxies um find perhaps other alien civilizations or at least the remnants of alien civilizations um gain a better understanding of where is this universe going where did it come from and what questions do we not yet know to ask about the answer that is the universe so let's

go back 25 years late '90s you're at PayPal how do you turn PayPal into the success it was which which then helped launch you to the next one and the next one yeah so I studied physics and economics in college is a good foundation for understanding how the economy works and how the how reality Works um and then um was going to do a PhD at Stanford in um Advanced uh Ultra capacitors actually as a uh potential means of uh energy storage for electric transport um put that on hold to start an Internet company um essentially came to the conclusion that the internet was one of those rare things and I could either watch it happen while a grad student or participate and I figured I could always go back to grad school you know grad school is going to be kind of

the same but uh I I I couldn't bear the thought of just watching the internet happen so I wanted to be a part of building it so I created a an internet internet company we did the first Maps directions Yellow Pages White Pages um on the internet I actually wrote the first version of the software software just by myself in 95 and um we ended up selling that to compact Texas company I guess yeah um for about $300 million in cash about four years after I graduated wow so I should say just to preface that I I graduated with about $100,000 in student debt so it wasn't uh yeah you and me both yeah yeah where's my right I know um and when I first arrived in North America I arrived with $2,500 a bag of books and a and a bag of clothes all right so you sell the

company for 300 million how how much does that change your life well I got $21 million Blackjack um and but I wanted to do more on the internet so started a company called X which mer with a company called confinity uh which is Peter teal and Max Leon yeah and um the combined company was actually at First still called x.

com but we later later changed the name of the company to PayPal uh because of all the name changes it's kind of confusing but the company that people know is know as as PayPal today was actually I filed those incorporation documents for that company interesting yeah well and and as you know Peter teal and I were buddies back in the mid90s he went and of this but you know I became friends with him when he was a corporate lawyer in New York and just sort of a young libertarian with with a lot of dreams so it's it's been a heck of a journey uh yeah yeah and now obviously Peter was involved in a coup uh you know we had a little sort of knifing in the Senate situation uh where um uh you know that they did CW me at at at PayPal um I kind of now did you all

make peace after that yeah yeah yeah I mean I was doing a lot of sort of risky moves that I think ultimately would have been successful but um I then went on a two we trip which was a a dual money raising trip and honeymoon since I'd not done my honeymoon earlier in the year so I was raising money while doing doing H honeymoon but I was kind of a was how did that go by the way it worked it worked there you go kind of it worked ra money yeah yeah and we had a honeymoon there you go so yeah uh but you don't want to be away from the battle when things are scary um so I was not there to assuage the concerns of the troops um and um anyway uh we we patched things up and have been friends uh nonetheless and um yeah know these days I like stay at his house and

stuff so obviously we're friends and he's also invested in in most of my companies all right so 2002 you you start SpaceX like how do you start a rocket company like what's the first day where you're like I want to make rockets and I want to go to Mars like what what do you do on day one so I think you have to start with a some sort of philosophical premise in order to have in order for the in order to be in order to be highly motivated you have to have some um philosophical Foundation in my case it was um that that we want to expand the SC the scope and scale of Consciousness to better understand the nature of the universe um and in order to to expand expand Consciousness we need to go beyond One Planet if we're if we're on one planet there's there's

too much risk you know hopefully Earth civilization prospers very far into the future but it may not there's always some risk that we are uh we self annihilate through nuclear war or that there's a big meteor that takes us out like the dinosaurs y there's always some risk if all your eggs are in one basket so it's going to be better if uh we're multiplet species and then once we're multiplan species The Next Step would be to be multi- stellar and have uh civilization among on on many different star systems so in 2001 I didn't think that I could I didn't think I could sell a rocket company so I I thought take some of the money from um PayPal and that that case I think it was about $180 million after tax something like that and I thought you know I don't

need $180 million so I'll spend a bunch of it on uh a philanthropic MOS mission to get the public excited about going back to Mars or going to Mars I should say yeah Mars was always going to be the destination after the Moon right um in fact if you told people in 19 in 1969 that it would be 2025 and we've not even gone back to the Moon let alone it's hard to believe let alone Mars they'd be like what happened did civilation did civilization collapsed stop yeah like like they would be incomprehensible that we've not been to Mars by now if you told people L after landing on the moon in 69 why do you think in 50 years America never went back to the Moon well we destroyed the Saturn 5 rocket that was that that could take people the moon and had the space

shuttle which could only go to lowth orbit um and then there really hasn't been anything to replace any no no vehicle has been made since then that can go to the moon or to Mars until the SpaceX Starship rocket yeah so can't go to Mars if you don't have the ride so I remember you and I first met in 2013 when when I was a brand new baby Senator and I was still down in the basement office they stick freshman senators in basement office kind of like hazing yeah yeah I about say it sounds like there are 100 Senate offices but for six months you stay in the basement put you in your place but it's like wearing beanie they just uh they want you to know where you're supposed to be you know I got to say now 13 years into it I think there's a lot of wisdom to doing

that but you were down in the basement office and I remember you were coming and sitting down with SpaceX and at the time the Air Force was not letting youall bid to to launch satellites and see you're coming and saying look we got a company I think we can do a really good job of this and yet we're locked out of this it's a little amazing to think the journey SpaceX has gone from then to now uh yes it's hard to believe that this is all real um because originally consistent with my belief that we need to become a multiplan species I thought the only way to do that would be through NASA so uh and I think I thought well if if I can just get the public excited about Mars then they'll do a mission to Mars and uh so my thought was to have to send a small Greenhouse

uh with seeds in dehydrated nutrient gel then land the greenhouse hydrate the seeds and you see these this the sort of money shot the money shot would be green plants on a red background yeah um I also recently learn that mon shot uh has a different meaning in some other Arenas but yeah I'm glad you very very different story but um what I'm trying to say is the the the captivating shot um would be the green plants on a red background um and that hopefully that would if we did something like that that would get the public excited about Mars that would increase NASA's budget and then we could send people to Mars so your original dream was NASA to do this yes not you no the original original plan was uh literally to to take a bunch of the money from PayPal

um and I guess by some people's definition Wast it with no no profit uh on a nonprofit thing to I wanted to spend a whole bunch of my money money for free to get NASA's budget to be bigger so we could go to fraking Mars right wow that's what I wanted so that was the Holy Grill that's what I wanted I was like so when did you change go to Mars that's what I wanted to know when when did it strike you okay you're going to have to do this if you want I tell you it gets crazier all right it gets crazier so so then I couldn't afford any of the US Rockets because as you know the US Rockets are way too expensive the bo locky rock lucky Rockets are crazy money I didn't have I didn't even even with 180 million there no way I could have afford how much were they

back then well the the with with the additional stage to get to Mars it would have been about like 80 million so technically I could have afforded one of them but I wanted to do two in case one of them didn't work yeah so uh and then I didn't have enough money for that and I was sort of prepared to you know I don't know waste half the money uh and I figured if I had 90 million left that' be fine you know uh but ideally not all of it so I went to Russia twice to to try to buy icbms oh interesting how'd that go and who do you call uh the Russian rocket forces do they sell icbms does that work yeah you got to tell us the story then I want to know who you can buy anything in Russia yeah I I like please walk me down that I want to know how you made that phone

call and when you get there how did that work and what do you tell your friends you know listen I'm I'm going to Russia device of ICBM I I might not you know depends on the situation literally um so I guess slightly less insane when you uh when uh you understand that uh the Russians had to demolish a bunch of their icbms because of uh you know salt talks like the peace because of basically an agreement between the United States and and Russia to reduce the total number of icbms sure Russia was actually obligated to scrap a bunch of their icbms so took the very biggest icbms you could convert those into a rocket at an additional stage and and send something to Mars so so those are big enough with one more stage to get to Mars to send a small payload to

Mars yeah so the ss8 so you try to buy cbms do you succeed or no or do you figure out you got to build your own instead they kept raising the price on me so um because I figured like look they're going to throw these things in scrapyard anyway you should get a really good deal yeah right um so the price started out at at 4 million then the next conversation there were at 8 million then the next conversation they were at like1 million and I'm like this is before we signed a contract by the way was there another bidder was there another bidder or were you the only one trying to buy them I think I don't know if there were other bids but they didn't mention any other bids yeah but I was like man if if the price is increasing this much before the contract

signed yeah I'm really going to get fleeced after the contract signed so so I got pretty frustrated there um actually in some cases we got into like shouting matches in Moscow some guy shouting at me in Russia and I'm shouting back at him in really badly you know I'm like so you are all I mean you're all ining me off in Moscow yeah so uh man I should have recorded that that would have been one for them how many days were you there negotiating that first time I mean was this like ongoing yeah yeah this this took place these conversations took place over probably six months or so wow um so um and then the final trip trip there was with the uh with was with Mike Griffin who later became Assa administrator um I actually realized in the in the course of this

that my original premise was wrong that that America actually has plenty of will to go to Mars but needs that it just needs a way to go to Mars um that is Affordable um and that doesn't break the budget you know well as you know we couldn't even get to the space station we needed the Russians to to to get us to our own space station that was embarrassing it really was pitiful I'm not sure most Americans know just how much we were being fleeced like I think they got up to like $90 million a seat yeah wow yeah for a seat that cost them like 10 that was pre Doge obviously but it was the only before SpaceX but but $90 million a seat for a seat that cost them 10 million is high yeah that's a lot of money yeah um so a few months ago you and I were down in Bach

chica with the president for a Starship launch and it is incredible what you built in Bach chica you know five years ago it was an empty beach at the southern tip of Texas sandar yeah and it's now a city and and a factory where you're building a rocket ship a month with with Incredible precision yeah but one of the things you you said to me when we were down there that really stood out to me is is is you said your philosophy on intellectual property talked to lots of CEOs they're like yeah we fight to guard our IP and and you had a very different approach what what's what's your view of Ip patent of the week Pat for those who innovate slowly I I literally do not know anyone else in business who would say something like that like like it was a startling

and and and and what Elon said down there is he said look this stuff I assume everyone will steal everything but by the time they steal it will be five generations Beyond and it won't matter yes um at at at Tesla we actually open source to live patents so we said our patents are anyone can use them for free really um yeah uh the only we only do patents at Tesla to to avoid patent trolls causing causing trouble so we'll try to look ahead say Okay patent trolls going to Tri P file patents to block certain things will file patents and then open source patent make it free I mean it when I say patents for the week now there are a few uh cases in in say with Pharmaceuticals where it might cost you a billion dollars to do a P3 uh human trial um but then subsequently

the the drug is very cheap to manufacture so cases there are some in my opinion which should massively reduce what can be patented um and and and say because the whole point of patenting is is to maximize Innovation not inhibit it m um and in my opinion it's maybe a controversial opinion um most patents inhibit Innovation they do not help it um but there are case I want to do want to single out cases like where such as a face3 clinical trial that might cost a billion dollars but the then the drugs thereafter cost a few dollars to manufacturer and and if you can then immediately copy those drugs for a few dollars no one will pay for the billion dollar a free riter Problem free riter problem exactly so you have to address the free riter problem but other

than that there should be no patents the ideas are easy you want ideas to flow maximum to people to get there faster and do things bigger the idea is the easy part uh the hard execution is the hard part as the old saying goes It's 1% inspiration if not less than 1% and 99% perspiration but I'll say the perspiration part you're really damn good at also because you're making you know the companies You're Building are actually building stuff they're building cars they're building spaceships they're building things that if they don't work it's a real problem and and the Precision you man facture things with how do you get that level of precision how do you get how do you build a culture you're not you're amazing at thinking outside the box but but what's

interesting is you you may even be better at execution which is how do you execute so effectively well I take a post physics post principal approach to everything it's not as though I I I wanted to insource manufacturing it's just that I was unable to Outsource it effectively so uh you know the idea in the beginning of Tesla was that we would Outsource almost all the manufacturing uh but then it turned out there was no there were no good companies to Outsource manufacturing too which there wasn't uh really really wasn't Peaceable outour manufacturing actually is uh the exception of the rule um and uh and just over time we had to ensource almost everything for Tesla and same for SpaceX I became very good at my facturing because I had to there's no choice

at this point I might know more about manufacturing than any any human ever has because I've done so many I've manufactured so many different things in so many different Arenas um I think probably more than anyone ever has look that's that sounds like an astonishing statement but it's not a crazy statement and and you're somehow running Tesla and running SpaceX and running X and running the boring company and running norlink and doing Doge how much do you sleep in a given night about 6 hours on average so about six so so that's it wouldn't have shocked me if you said three or four so the next question is how many hours do you work a day I work almost every waking hour and and Ben he he's not kidding at that like when Elon and I were first getting to know

each other um I suggested I said hey let's grab dinner sometime and I don't know if you remember what you said you said I I don't eat dinner I don't have social dinners really right I mean that yeah you obviously eat food but the idea you're not going to restaurant for two hours but the idea of like I I don't but it was it was just kind of matter of fact why would I go to dinner like I you you work uh yeah I I literally just thought I'll have lunch and dinner BR during meetings and continue the meeting how many nights have you slept at your offices you think your career percentage wise where you say I just got to take this nap basically because my body forces me to and I got to get back to work fast and efficiently without going somewhere else well I

guess it started out even with with the first company uh sub2 which is a terrible name but the first internet company um the we were able to rent an office uh which was like in a leaky attic essentially for $500 a month and the the cheapest um apartment we could find was $800 a month so like and we only had about $55,000 between brother and I MH so we're like we're not we'll we'll we'll just stay in the office yeah uh so we got some um couches that converted into beds um and we'd uh kind of sleep at night and then we just have to like uh turn the the beds back into couches uh before anyone came and then we we sh the YMCA down the road and so that went that that that that literally was the for several months what we did uh was in great shape you know uh

work out out the why um I still remember that that YMCA at Page Mill alino uh in paloalto so that was a long time ago so it's been I don't know I've never thought to count it but uh several hundred days maybe I don't know so you're now the richest man on earth do you still sleep at the office well that's true maybe Mars we we'll we'll find someone else but I think if if someone is a sovereign head of a country that in facto richer by a lot do you still sleep at the office now I have slept at the office yeah well thank you Elon this this was this was awesome and and let me say and by the way I I put out on X the day before yesterday if you were having a beer with Elon and could ask him anything what would you ask and got lots of responses yeah the most

common response people said is is is say thank you look Texans and the American people appreciate what you're doing you don't have to put up with this BS and you're doing it I'm grateful you're making a hell of a difference for this country I appreciate you and the Americans appreciate you thank you it's essential for the future of civilization otherwise I wouldn't be doing it yes it's not like I want to get death threats you know no don't forget we do this show Monday Wednesday and Friday hit that subscribe or Auto download button from the White House it's been a pleasure thanks for being with us on verdict we'll see you guys back here in a couple days [Music]