我们现在请到了一位至少从许多衡量标准来看，是当今世界上最伟大的资本家。埃隆·马斯克，非常感谢你前来与我们交谈。可以说，目前在美国媒体中，我们至少要面对3个埃隆·马斯克。一个是拟议中的 Twitter 买家。一个是 Tesla、SpaceX 以及许多其他公司的首席执行官。还有一个是正在崛起的政治力量马斯克。

而这还没算上我们发现或讨论所有那些不同的挑衅言论和推文等等。但或许我们可以逐一谈谈这3个身份。我们先从 Twitter 开始。我想问的是，这笔收购该公司的440亿、440亿美元交易目前状况如何？如果看看目前的交易价差，投资者似乎是在押注它不会发生，我想。

而就在这里，你的支持者中有那位吉他手。你要对他们和我们说什么？首先，我想说，殿下、各位阁下以及尊贵的来宾。非常感谢你们让我以线上方式参加。很荣幸能来到这里，或者说以线上方式来到那里。事实上，我真希望自己能亲自到场。

所以，关于 Twitter 交易，鉴于这是一件颇为敏感的事情，我能公开说的内容有限。因此，我希望在这里谨慎作答。以免引发更多诉讼。这似乎是一场有时设法克服的营救。是的。我认为尽量减少证词询问很重要。你是否，Twitter 是否已经向你提供了足够的信息？嗯，仍然有几个尚未解决的问题。

你可能已经读到过这个问题，即系统中的虚假用户和垃圾信息用户数量是否如 Twitter 所声称的那样低于5%。我认为这大概并不符合大多数人使用 Twitter 时的体验。所以我们仍在等待这个问题得到解决，而那、那是一个非常重大的问题。所以我们正在等待这个问题得到解决。当然，还有一个问题是，这一轮融资中的债务部分能否落实。

然后，股东是否会投赞成票。所以我认为，在交易完成之前，需要解决的就是摆在他们面前的这3件事。那么总体经济状况呢？当你考虑这件事时，它会对你造成压力吗？我是说，刚刚描述了这一点。你对经济有一种极其糟糕的感觉。你现在仍然持这种看法吗？

我刚才对你说，乔·拜登刚刚出来表示，美国出现经济衰退并非不可避免。你如何看待经济？嗯，我认为经济衰退在某个时候不可避免；至于近期是否会出现经济衰退，我认为可能性大于不会出现的可能性。当然，这并不是。它不是确定无疑的，但看起来可能性大于不会出现的可能性。那你认为在哪里。我、我、我。我同意你的看法。我赞同你。

我认为这种可能性更大。我能否问一个与收购 Twitter 有关的具体问题？你知道，你是中国规模最大、增长最快的投资者之一。你曾谈到，Tesla 未来三分之一的销售额将来自中国。你现在又要收购 Twitter，也就是这种支持言论自由的公共论坛。中国人历来往往对言论自由非常热衷。

你是否担心自己能否让这两匹特殊的马同时奔跑？收购 Twitter 会不会让你惹上中国方面的麻烦？嗯，Twitter 并不运营，而且是的。而且我认为改变不是，它是为了少数干预美国新闻界的言论自由。据我所知，IBEX，我猜你没有受到压力，要让彭博把它从中国弄来。所以我认为有。

总体而言，我认为这在言论自由与 Twitter 这个问题上不会成为问题。你谈到过要让 Twitter 变得更加自由，并允许更多人使用它。对于你认为哪些人应该获准使用 Twitter，是否存在任何界限？嗯，我对 Twitter，或者总体而言对数字城镇广场的期望，是让它在这个词的广义层面上尽可能包容，让它。

让它成为一个使用起来有吸引力的系统。所以，我的意思是，理想情况下，我希望让北美大约80%的人使用它，也许。我不知道，让全世界一半的人或诸如此类的人。最终以某种形式使用 Twitter。而这需要。这意味着它必须是对人们有吸引力的东西。显然，它不能是一个让他们感到不适或受到骚扰的地方，否则他们就不会使用它。

所以我认为，言论自由和传播自由之间存在着这种很大的区别，因为一个人显然可以录下来。我说，去时代广场中央，基本上想喊什么就喊什么。而你。你会惹恼周围的人，但你算是获准可以随便喊任何你想喊的东西。而且在拥挤的公共场所，大体上除了“这是，这是一起抢劫”，那可能会让你惹上麻烦。

所以，但是，但是之后，无论你说的那番话多么有争议，都没有必要向全国播送。所以我认为，总体而言，Twitter 的做法应该是让人们在法律范围内说他们想说的话，但随后限制。根据每一位 Twitter 用户的偏好来决定谁会看到那些内容。所以，如果你的偏好是什么都看或什么都读，那么，好吧，你就会看到那些内容。

但如果你的偏好是，嗯，你不愿看到那些以某种形式冒犯你的评论。那么你，你可以把它设为一项设置，从而不看到它。而且，但我认为，无论如何，如果要采取我所说的那些步骤，以及那些吸引大多数人愿意使用 Twitter、享受它，并觉得它信息丰富、有娱乐性、有趣，而且就是某种有用的东西的步骤，就是让它尽可能有用。

听起来你想亲自参与，你的计划是担任 Twitter 的首席执行官吗？如果你那么做，你还会继续担任 Tesla 和 SpaceX X 的首席执行官吗？嗯，我。我不会推动产品，这就是我在 SpaceX 和 Tesla 所做的事。所以我会推动产品和技术，无论那时我被称为首席执行官还是别的什么，都远不如我推动产品朝正确方向发展的能力重要。我可以转到 Tesla 吗？

他们不是，你知道，对大多数人来说非常明显的是，你已经改变了汽车行业，而且是以一种巨大的方式。有一件事让我相当感兴趣，那就是你的竞争对手。你认为竞争会来自哪里？你认为它会来自卷土重来的老牌汽车制造商吗？我刚看到一项预测，也许几年后，大众在电动汽车领域会比新更大。还是你认为它会来自新的地方？你相信那一点吗？

我相信那项预测是，是你们作出的。是的，确实是。你同意那项预测吗？我不同意那项预测。你把大众、通用汽车以及像巴士这样的人视为对手吗？所以你认为是中国那边的人，那些新的中国公司。你认为电动汽车领域最有活力的竞争在哪里？

我会说，我对中国的公司和汽车公司印象非常深刻，总体上就是对中国的公司印象深刻。我认为他们极具竞争力、勤奋且聪明。而且，而且我认为，将会，会有一股规模巨大的中国产品浪潮在世界各地成长起来。它们已经在这样做了。但你知道，例如，几乎所有 iPhone 都是由苹果的合同工厂在中国制造的。

但我认为，我们将看到一大批产品从中国出口。在很多行业，比如说电动汽车，他们有什么优势吗？你知道。是的。不，我确实认为。嗯，我应该说，从汤姆·麦肯齐的角度来看，我们其实不会考虑其他竞争对手。

我们的制约因素更多在于原材料以及扩大生产规模的能力，所以我们的制约因素不是竞争对手强加给我们的，而只是供应链的现实以及拉升制造产能所强加给我们的。所以，我是说，任何尝试下单、在 Tesla 下单的人都知道。对我们汽车的需求极高，等待名单也很长。所以我们的，而且这并非有意为之。

我们正在以人力所能达到的最快速度提高产能。所以，那，所以，放松那一点，我们真的不会考虑竞争，或者说，我们只会考虑，如何，如何应对供应链以及我们自身工业产能中的限制因素。

我们需要更快地建造工厂，然后需要前瞻整个锂离子电池供应链中所有的瓶颈，从采矿和精炼，到凯瑟琳和中断，再到电芯成型。所以，你能，你能，你能澄清一件事吗，就是有关裁员的这个问题。

我想你最初说过，Tesla 10%的员工将被裁掉，然后是10%的领薪员工将被裁掉，接着又说领薪员工数量将保持不变、不变，而员工总数会上升。这个数字究竟是多少？我知道，我想已经有人就这10%提起诉讼，10%是，是削减员工人数的目标吗？所以，我们应该考虑的，或者你正在计划的数字是多少？是的。

所以，是 Tesla 在接下来大概3个月左右将领薪员工人数削减约10%。这个，我们预计会增加时薪员工。我们已经说得很清楚，我们预计会增加我们的 ISE 时薪员工，但在领薪员工方面，我们会随此增长得非常快。而且我们在某些领域增长得有点太快了。所以这就需要削减领薪员工，去穿戴大约三分之二按小时计酬和三分之一领薪。

所以我想，严格来说，沙拉员工减少10%，只相当于员工总数减少大约3%、3.5%。现在我认为，我认为这个数字在法律上很重要，不是吗？因为我想人们试图说，如果你，如果你要裁掉10%的员工，那么即使在美国，你也必须对此发布公告。我们确实发布了那份公告。是的。

我们不要对一起不具备诉讼资格的预防性诉讼过度解读。那，那，那是影响很小的最微不足道的诉讼，只是任何与 Tesla 有关的事情都会成为大标题。但无论它是，你知道，一起自行车事故，还是某种严重得多的事情，都是这样。所以看起来像是什么都可以。只要 Tesla 被列入其中，就会获得大量点击，无论，无论它微不足道还是意义重大。

我会把那起诉讼归到无关紧要的类别里。所以你知道，我认为我们的员工人数会增加，无论是领薪员工，显然也包括时薪员工，但在未来几个月的短期内。我们预计会看到，我说过，领薪员工队伍大约减少10%，实际上这只相当于总员工人数减少3%到3.5%，并不是特别重大。

所以我们跳到那个层面，那个第3个埃隆·马斯克，政治上没有争议的那个。你曾表示，如果佛罗里达州州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯竞选总统，他是你可能会支持的人。我想知道你现在是否仍持这一立场，以及比如说，如果唐纳德·特朗普参选，你是否会考虑支持他。嗯，我只是被问到，如果说我是否已经决定会在下一届总统竞选中支持谁。

而我说，我还没有决定我是否会支持。然后有人问我，那么你可能倾向于谁。我说可能是这些答案。而现在，现在我要问你关于特朗普的事，你是否会考虑他。我想，对于那场选举，我目前还没有决定，而且我想，你谈到过在美国出资支持一个超级温和的超级政治行动委员会。我想知道，你认为自己会投入多少钱。

你会推动什么样的支持。我还没有决定金额，但我想会是某个、某个不可忽略的数字。我的意思是，至少大概是不可忽略的数量级，意思是很多。好吧。对你来说，不可忽略可能意味着很多钱。我是猜的。嗯，我不知道。我还没有决定确切金额，但也许是2000万或2500万。仅就那个问题而言，我的意思是，再说一次，你看看人口普查所说的含义。

你看看特朗普说了什么，而那类立场，他们又是那些在中国问题上大声喧嚷的人。我想知道，你是否认为，就在中国开展业务而言，这对你来说也是一个问题。嗯，不，我不这么认为。你真勇敢。是不是，我能。我能问你，你在周末。你、你在推文中表示支持一种加密货币。你已经看到目前加密货币领域正在发生的那种惨状。

发生了什么。而且你仍然认为人们应该、应该投资吗。还是要采取更有选择性的。方式。嗯，我从未说过人们应该投资加密货币。就Tesla、SpaceX和我本人而言。是的。基础科学并没有全都混在一起，确实买了一些比特币，但它只占我们现金和近现金资产总额的一小部分。所以它不是一个不那么重大的。

我也买了一些狗狗币，Tesla接受用狗狗币购买一些商品，SpaceX也一样，而且。而且我打算以个人身份支持狗狗币，因为我看到很多并不那么富有的人鼓励我购买和支持狗狗币。所以我是在回应那些人，就是普通人。而且我想从工厂获得更多。这是一个性的Tesla。他们请求我支持那些币，所以我正在这么做。

因为我认为狗狗币已经跌了很多。它下跌了大约80% 90%，或者说跌了很多。而这就是为什么你、你站出来说，你仍然认为它有价值。那个。我说的是狗狗币的ISE，而我正在那个期间。我能问你最后一个问题吗，我注意到你、你将推出一款人形机器人，于9月30日揭晓。我想知道你是否还能告诉我们更多信息。

嗯，我希望借此我们能有一个有趣的原型展示给人们，表明我们是Tesla一支非常有才华的团队，我正在与这支团队密切合作，以便在9月底之前准备好一个人形机器人原型。我认为我们正在朝那个节点前进，所以还会有其他几件令人兴奋的事情，我们会谈到它。Tesla的想法。

但我真的想要，你知道，我们举办这类日常活动，就是为了强调Tesla远不只是一家汽车公司，而且在我看来，我们是现存领先的现实世界一个抱怨。嗯，你当时，你。你看到了吗。

所有那些关于谷歌电线推文网络的风波，至少有1名工程师认为，就那套机器中正在发生的事情而言，它比以前所见的更接近人类，而且相当令人担忧，它有一种人格。这是你会考虑的事情吗，或者说你会担心吗。我认为，我认为我们应该对此感到担忧。

我是，而且我很久以来一直说，我认为应该有一个为了公共利益而监督人工智能的监管机构。而且我认为，就像任何事情一样，任何事物、天气对公众构成风险。无论那拯救的是食品药品监督管理局，还是联邦航空管理局、通信委员会，无论是公共风险还是公共利益受到牵涉。

有某种政府裁判和监管机构是件好事。而且我认为，我们应该为人工智能设立这样的机构，但目前还没有。这会是我的建议。你知道，马斯克，你在时间上对我们极为慷慨。尤其是因为我想现在是凌晨3:00，而他们并不在、在早上。而且是的，这是一场英勇的表现。非常感谢你与吉他经济论坛交谈，并接受彭博社采访。

非常感谢。欢迎。谢谢你邀请我。

We now have a man who by many measures at least is the world's greatest capitalist at the moment. Elon Musk thank you very much for coming and talking to us. You could argue at the moment the US in the media we have at least three Elon Musk to deal with. We have the proposed buyer of Twitter. We have the CEO of Tesla Space X and much else. And we have Musk the emerging political force.

And that's before we discover or discuss all the different provocations and tweets and so on. But maybe we can run through those three. And let's begin with Twitter. And I suppose my question for you is what is the status of the 44 billion deal 44 billion dollar deal to buy the company. If you look at the deal spreads at the moment the investors seem to be betting that it won't happen I suppose.

And right here you have the guitarist who amongst your backers. What are you going to say to them and to us. First of all I'd like to say your highness your excellencies and distinguished guests. Thank you very much for hosting me virtually. It's an honor to be here or be there virtually. And I actually wish I could be there in person.

So with respect to the Twitter transaction there's a limit to what I can say publicly given that it is somewhat of a sensitive matter. And so I would like to be measured in my responses here. Such as not to generate incremental lawsuits. That seems to be a rescue sometimes managed to overcome. Yes. Deposition minimization is I think important. Have you as have Twitter given you enough information. Well there are still a few unresolved matters.

You probably read about the question as to whether the number of fake and spam users on the system is less than 5 percent as Twitter claims. Which I think is probably not most people's experience on when using Twitter. So we're still awaiting resolution on that matter and that that is a very significant matter. So we're awaiting resolution on that. And then of course there is the question of will the debt portion of the round come together.

And then will the shareholders vote in favor. So I think those are the three things that stand in them that need to be resolved before the transaction can complete. What about the general state of the economy. Does that weigh on you when you think about this. I mean just described it. You have a super bad feeling about the economy. Are you still in that position.

I just said you earlier Joe Biden has just come out and said that a recession in America is not inevitable. How do you feel about the economy. Well I think a recession is inevitable at some point as to whether there is a recession in the near term. I think that is more likely than not. It certainly isn't. It's not a certainty but it appears more likely than not. And where do you think. I'm I'm I'm. I'm with you. I agree with you.

I think it's more likely. Can I ask you one particular thing to do with the Twitter bid which is you know you are one of the biggest and fastest growing investors in China. Tesla you've talked about it being a third of your sales going forward. You're now buying Twitter the kind of public forum for free speech. The Chinese historically tend to be very enthusiastic about free speech.

Are you worried about whether you can keep those two particular horses running. Is is buying Twitter going to get you in trouble with the Chinese. Well Twitter does not operate and yes. And I think change is not it's to a few interfere with the free speech of the press in the US. As far as I know IBEX I assume you're not under pressure to get Bloomberg to get it from China. So I think there's.

I don't think this could be an issue in terms generally of that issue of freedom of speech and Twitter. You've talked about Twitter being making it even freer and letting more people onto it. Is there a limit at all to who you think should be allowed on Twitter. Well I had my aspiration for Twitter or in general for the digital town square would be that it is as inclusive in the broader sense of the word as possible that it is.

It is an appealing system to use. So I mean ideally I'd like to get like 80 percent of that in North America perhaps. I don't know half the world or something. Ultimately on on Twitter and in one form or another. And that needs. That means it must be something that is appealing to people. It obviously cannot be a place where they feel uncomfortable or harassed or they'll simply not use it.

So I think there's there's this big difference between freedom of speech and freedom of reach in that one can obviously tape. I said go in the middle of Times Square and pretty much yell anything you want. And do you. You annoy the people around you but you're kind of allowed to just sort of yell whatever you want. And in a crowded public place more or less apart from this is this is a robbery probably that would get you in trouble.

So but but then that that whatever you say however controversial does not need to then be broadcast to the whole country. So I think generally the approach of Twitter should be to let people say what they want to do within the bounds of the law but then limit the. Who sees that based on any given Twitter users preferences. So if your preferences are to see anything or read anything then well you'll get that.

But if your preferences are well it you'd prefer not to see the comments that you find offensive in one form or another. Then you you can have that as a setting and not see it. And but I think one way or another if one is to take the steps that I and that that entice most people to want to be on Twitter and enjoy it and find it informative and entertaining and funny and just something useful is as useful as possible.

It sounds like you want to be involved is your plan to be CEO of Twitter. And if you do that would you still keep being CEO of Tesla and SpaceX X. Well I. I wouldn't drive the product which is what I do with Space X and Tesla. So I drive the product and technology whether I'm that when I'm called the CEO or something else is much less important than my ability to drive the product in the right direction. Can I jump towards Tesla.

They're not you know most people it's very obvious you have changed the car industry and in a dramatic way. I'm quite intrigued by one thing which is your competitors. Where do you see competition coming from. Do you see it coming from the old carmakers coming back at you. I just saw a forecast that may be in a couple of years time Volkswagen would be bigger than new in electric cars. Or do you see it coming from new place. Do you believe that.

I believe that forecast was was from you. Yes it was. And do you agree with that. I would not agree with that forecast. Do you see people like Volkswagen and General Motors and people like buses as the opponent. So you see people like China that knew Chinese companies. Where do you see the most vibrant competition in electric cars.

I'd say that I am very impressed with the companies and the car companies in China just in general with companies in China. I think they're extremely competitive hardworking and smart. And and I think there's going gonna be just a massive wave of Chinese products growing up in the world. They already are. But you know for example like almost all the iPhones are made in China by contract factories for Apple.

But I think we'll see just a large wave of products being exported from China. In many industries like say electric cars do they have an advantage at all. You know. Yeah. No I do think. Well I should say from the Tom Mackenzie perspective we don't really think about other competitors.

Our constraints are much more in raw materials and being able to scale up production so our constraints are not imposed upon us by competitors but rather the just imposed upon us by the realities of the supply chain and pulling up manufacturing capacity. So I mean as anyone knows who is try to order that order at Tesla. The demand for our cars is extremely high and the wait list is long. So our and this is not intentional.

We are increasing production capacity as fast as humanly possible. So that so relax that we really don't think about competition or we just think about how how do we address the limiting factors in the supply chain and in our own industrial capacity.

We need to build the factories faster and then we need to look ahead to whatever the choke points are in the whole lithium ion battery supply chain from mining and refining to Catherine and abruption and cell formation. So can you can you can you set the record straight on one thing which is this issue about the layoffs.

I think you said initially that Tesla 10 percent of the workforce will be cut then 10 percent of salaried would be cut then salaried would stay flat flat and overall headcount would go up. What is the number. I know there's already I think been a lawsuit about the 10 percent is is 10 percent the goal to reduce the workforce. So what is the number that we should think about or that you're planning. Yes.

So is it Tesla is reducing the salaried workforce by roughly 10 percent over the next probably three months or so. The we expect to grow our hourly workforce. We're quite clear that we expect to grow our ISE hourly workforce but we will grow very fast with this on the salary side. And we grew a little too fast in some areas. And so it requires a reduction in salaried workforce to wear about two thirds hourly and one third salary.

So I guess technically a 10 percent reduction in the salad workforce is only roughly a three three and a half percent reduction in total headcount. Now I think I think that number is important legally isn't it. Because I think people are trying to say if you if you're going to lay off 10 percent of your workforce you have even in America to make an announcement about that. We did make that announcement. Yes.

Let's not read too much into a preemptive lawsuit that has no standing. That that that is the smallest lawsuit of minor consequence that just anything that related to Tesla gets big headlines. But it is whether it is you know a bicycle accident or something much more serious. So it is it seems like anything. You're slated if Tesla gets a lot of clicks whether for whether it is trivial or significant.

I would put that lawsuit right here in the trivial category. So you know I think our head count will be higher in both salaried and obviously in hourly but in the short term of next few months. We expect to see I said roughly a 10 percent reduction in salary salaried workforce which is actually just really only three three and a half percent reduction in total headcount and not super material.

So we jumped to that level that that third Elon Musk the the uncontroversial one in politics. You've indicated that the Florida governor Ron DeSantis is someone you could get behind if he ran for president. I wondered if you're still in that position and whether you would for instance think about supporting Donald Trump if he were to run. Well I was simply asked if there was if I decided on who I would be supporting in the next presidential race.

And I said I had not yet decided if I would support. Then I was asked well who might you be leaning towards. I said possibly this answers. And now and now I'm asking you about Trump whether you would consider him. I think I'm undecided at this point on that election and I wanted you talked about putting money behind a super moderate super PAC in the US. And I wondered how much money do you think you're going to put into that.

What kind of support would you push. I haven't decided on the amount but it would be some some non-trivial figure I think. I mean at least sort of on the order of non-trivial ways means a lot. All right. Non-trivial could mean a lot of money with you. I was guessing. Well I don't know. I've not decided on the exact amount but perhaps to be 20 or 25 million. Just on that issue I mean again you look at the sense of what the census says.

You look at what Trump says and those sort of positions they again the people who make a large noise about China. And I wondered whether you thought that was also an issue for you in terms of business in China. Well no I don't think so. You're a brave man. Is it can I. Can I ask you you over the weekend. You you tweeted your support of one crypto currency. You've seen the kind of carnage that has been happening in crypto currencies at the moment.

What is happening. And do you still think people should should invest. Or is it more selective. Approach. Well I have never said that people should invest in crypto. In the case of Tesla Space X myself. Yeah. Basic science hasn't mixed up all did buy some bitcoin but it's a small percentage of our total cash and near cash assets. So it's not a less significant.

I also bought some dogecoin and Tesla accepts doge coin for some merchandise and space x with the same and. And I intend to personally support dogecoin because I just saw a lot of people who are not that wealthy who have encouraged me to buy and support dogecoin. So I'm responding to those people just people. And I want more from the factory. It's a sexual Tesla. They've asked me to support those coins so I'm doing so.

Because Dogecoin I think has come down a lot. It's down about 80 90 percent or it's down a lot. And that's the reason why you you came out and said that you still thought there was value. The. I said ISE for Dogecoin and I'm during the. Can I ask you one last question is I noticed that you you're going to unleash a humanoid robot to be unveiled on September the 30th. I wonder if there's anything more you could tell us about that.

Well I hope with it we will have an interesting prototype to show people that we're a very talented team at Tesla that I'm working with closely to have a prototype humanoid robot ready by the end of September. And I think we are travelling to that point so that there'll be a few other exciting things that we talk about it. The Tesla idea.

But I really want to you know we have these sort of everyday events to just emphasize that Tesla is a lot more than a car company and that we are in my view the leading real world a complain that exists. Well you were you. Did you see it.

All the the drama about the Google wire tweet web people at least one engineer thought that what was happening in terms of that machinery was closer to humans than had been seen before and quite worrying had a personality. Is that something that you think about at all and or you worry about. I think I think we should be concerned about.

I am and I said for a long time that I think this ought to be and a regulatory agency that oversees artificial intelligence for the public good. And I think just as there's anything that for anything the weather is a risk to the public. Whether that saves the Food and Drug Administration or Federal Aviation Administration Communications Commission whether it's a public risk or a public good at stake there.

It's good to have sort of a government referee and a regulatory body. And I think we should have that for a I and we don't currently. And that would be my recommendation. You know Musk you've been incredibly kind with your time. Not least because I think it's 3:00 a. m. and they're not in in the morning. And yes it's been a heroic performance. Thank you very much for talking to the Guitar Economic Forum and talking to Bloomberg.

Thank you very much. Welcome. Thanks for having me.