我认为，从你的视角讲述的 DOGE 故事从来没有被讲过。你觉得你们成功了吗？>> 我们有一点点成功。我们算是有些成功。>> 你还会再做一次 DOGE 吗？>> 嗯，我的意思是，不会。我觉得不会。我想，要是不做 DOGE，我我基本上会去打造，你知道，实质上就是专注于我的公司，而且不会，而且那些车，他们就不会一直开那些车了。>> 你最大的非理性恐惧是什么？>> 我我尽量不抱有非理性恐惧。>> 没有。如果我发现一种非理性恐惧，我会把它扼杀掉。>> 如果你今天不得不只带着1,000美元从零开始。你会做什么？>> 嗯，我当初确实确实是带着大概，我不知道，2500加元来到呃北美的，所以我不知道，可能是2000美元。到这个时候，我已经掌握了很多知识。得有很多事情出错，才会出现这种情况。这就像，我也许是刚从监狱出来，还领了一笔津贴吗？大家好，欢迎收听本周的《凯蒂·米勒播客》。我们今天在得克萨斯州，请到了独一无二的埃隆·马斯克。>> 呃，很高兴再次见到你，凯蒂。>> 很高兴见到你，埃隆。所以我想带我们回到过去。时间是1月20日。你当时在罗斯福厅，如果你还记得的话，正在宣誓就职，然后他们交给你一台电脑和一部手机。>> 对。对。>> 我想回头谈谈接下来发生了什么。我认为，从你的视角讲述的 DOGE 故事从来没有被讲过。关于 DOGE 将如何推进，你最初的想法是什么？>> 嗯，呃，我想我当时简直不敢相信自己在那里。呃，大体上就像，嗯，当时一切似乎都极其不真实。你知道，DOGE 是一个编出来的名字，嗯，是在，我不知道，2个月或3个月前编出来的，嗯，而且基于互联网上的建议，嗯，我本来打算把它叫作政府效率委员会，然后，然后，嗯，网上有人说：“不，应该叫政府效率部，Dog。”我就说：“听起来很棒。”嗯，所以我们就算是编出了一套公寓。>> 你觉得你们成功了吗？>> 我们有一点点成功。我们算是有些成功。嗯，我的意思是，我们我们我们叫停了很多[喷鼻息]拨款，那些拨款，嗯，确实完全没有道理。完全是浪费。比如说，每年大概有1000亿美元，也许2000亿美元的僵尸付款，呃，而只要，嗯，强制规定付款必须有付款代码和付款说明，呃，那笔付款就不会发出去。所以，我们对财政部的主计算机和其他一批计算机做了这项更改。嗯，这就像，似乎明显得离谱。嗯，但，呃，政府发出的款项中，就叫它，我，2%或3%吧，确实不应该发出去。嗯，而实际上要阻止它相当困难。嗯，所以，嗯，会要求政府别再给自己寄钱的人，是，是相当罕见的。>> 你还会再做一次 DOGE 吗？>> 嗯，你是说我会不会重演历史，还是说我会……>> 可以从2种方式考虑？一种是，如果你能回到过去、从零开始，就像又回到1月20日。你会回去并用不同的方式做吗？而且，以你现在知道的情况，你觉得是否还存在某个机会，让你重新开始？不是说由其他人代替你，而是你回去重新开始做 DOGE。[叹气] >> 我的意思是，不会，我觉得不会。嗯，我会不会，我我觉得我可能，我不知道。嗯，>> 以你现在知道的情况，你还会再做一次 DOGE 吗？我的意思是，问题在于，我想，要是不做 DOGE，我我基本上会去打造，你知道，实质上就是专注于我的公司。所以，而且不会，而且那些车，他们就不会烧那些车了。嗯。>> 你为了做这件事放弃了很多。呃，对，比如，如果你如果你如果你阻止资金流向，呃，流向流向政治腐败，他们会，他们会大举反击。>> 嗯哼。>> 嗯，所以他们真的希望资金继续流动。嗯，所以如果你阻止它流动，就会出现一种非常强烈的反应，反对阻止资金流动。>> 你在华盛顿待了一段时间后，有没有对它的运作方式感到幻灭？>> 嗯，我我不会说自己一开始就抱有多么强烈的幻想。呃，它，它，我的意思是，我想这就像，你确实希望政府做的事情越少越好。越少越好。我我我我想，也许也许，最重要的是，我想，最大的单一问题是，有巨额转移支付流向，嗯，非法移民，嗯，巨额的，实质上我们是在付钱让人们从别的地方来到这里，嗯，而且人数极多，包括把他们空运进来。所以，就像，如果你把他们空运进来，就不需要边境墙。嗯，然后加速他们获得公民身份，并且，嗯，让他们受制于政府付款，嗯，而且，呃，而且坚定地投票给极左派。那，那实质上就像是输入选民。如果如果如果你制造出一个巨大的金钱磁铁，来吸引，嗯，你说如果任何人从其他任何地方来到这里，我们就会付给你大大笔的钱，给你很多免费东西。嗯，来吧，来吧，来美国，而且还能为此拿钱。嗯，那你就会有很多人接受这个提议。嗯，而人们说，这这这是假的。我就说，呃，实际上，好吧，让我们看看，嗯，你知道，Elon Omar，她确实是由，呃，你知道，来自索马里、身处明尼苏达州的一大群人投票掌权、投进国会的，而明尼苏达州离索马里真的很远；或者 Mandani，他被投票选为，去当，去当市长。但如果，如果，但是……>> [清嗓子] >> 是由大多数并非，嗯，出生在美国的人投出来的。至少据我了解是这样。嗯，所以，嗯，然后，然后加利福尼亚州，可以说情况很严重。 所以，呃，我不，我们只是不想变成一个，嗯，你知道，基本上是共产主义地狱。你之前说过，未来没有人需要担心钱或工作，因为 AI 会把其他事情都处理好，AI 和机器人技术。你说人们未来不必工作是什么意思？>> 假设人工智能和机器人技术的当前趋势持续下去，而这似乎很可能，那么，嗯，AI 和机器人将能够做任何，任何人类希望，希望它们做的事情，实质上是这样。所以希望不会超出这个范围，但 AI 和机器人技术将能够为我们提供，提供任何人可能想要的一切商品和服务。所以……>> 但你不需要工作，比如，你会用空闲时间做什么？>> 人们，人们将能够用自己的空闲时间做任何想做的事。嗯，工作将是可选的。我，我的意思是，我只是想把我希望发生什么，与我预测会发生什么区分开来，因为人们会把这两者混淆。他们认为，我预测会发生的事，就是我希望它发生的事。>> 我想要的和我预测会发生的并不是一回事。>> 嗯，我，如果如果可以，我我当然会减缓，呃，AI 和机器人技术的发展，但我我做不到。它似乎正在，嗯，它它它正以非常快的速度发展。嗯，不管我喜不喜欢。>> AI 会让你夜不能寐吗？>> 以前会，到这个时候。我不知道。我我我不会说现在有什么事情特别让我夜不能寐，除了那个。但如果你问，什么，什么会让我从噩梦中惊醒？哦，AI。对。实际上，我做过很多关于 AI 的噩梦。呃，我我我连续很多天都做关于 AI 的噩梦。>> 那我该怎么办？>> 你最大的非理性恐惧是什么？>> 嗯，我我我尽量不抱有非理性恐惧。>> 没有。>> 如果我发现一种非理性恐惧，我会把它扼杀掉。我我我不认为，恐惧是，恐惧是心灵杀手。那么强烈感到恐惧的人怎么办？>> 嗯，平均来说，你每晚睡多少小时？>> 6小时。从我的 X 帖子就能看出来。>> 对，能看出来。>> 实际上有人把它们绘制出来了，所以你，很清楚我什么时候在睡觉，什么时候没睡。嗯，我试过睡眠少于6小时，但，嗯，虽然我每天清醒的小时数更多了，但我的认知功能下降了。所以，我自然状态下的睡眠，我实际上用手机计过时。可以找一个手机应用，但给它计时。大概是5小时56分钟。手机是这么说的。>> 你平常的一天是什么样的？>> 嗯，我会收到大量传入的信息。所以，就是信息分诊。我尽量把每一天分成不同部分，这样就不会有太多的情境切换，因为可以说，恐惧并不是心灵杀手。情境切换才是；如果你的收件箱里塞满了东西，就很难不切换情境。嗯，但你可以想象，比如，如果你必须每3秒、每30秒或每3分钟切换一次情境，那么每3秒切换一次所造成的认知损耗会非常高。>> 而你说的切换是指，比如在 Tesla、X、xAI……>> SpaceX、私人事务，>> SpaceX、私人事务……>> 之间切换，但即使是在 Tesla 和和 SpaceX 内部，也有很多不同的事情。看到 X 上诸如此类的东西，比如随机的新闻事件，嗯，你知道，人们被活活烧死之类的，你会想，这个国家到底怎么了？>> 你现实生活中认识的最有趣的人是谁？>> 你知道，特朗普总统非常风趣，他很有幽默感。>> 特朗普总统非常风趣。>> 他非常风趣，他就像是天生就很风趣，这多少有点毫不费力。我的意思是，嗯，你知道，当时 Ed Mumdani 在他的办公室里，然后，呃，他们问他是否认为总统是法西斯主义者，总统说，直接说是吧。那样更容易。>> 对。>> 别担心。直接说是。太棒了。>> 他就像，你们这些人。这多么，多么可笑。>> 你最敬仰谁？>> 造物主。>> 你目前对上帝持什么立场？呃，上帝就是造物主。>> 可是你并不相信上帝，对吗？>> 嗯，我相信，这个宇宙来自某种东西。人们使用不同的标签。>> 你上一次做极其普通的事情，比如去 Target 或 CVS，是什么时候？我不能去有普通公众在场的地方，因为，嗯，我我立刻就会形成一条“我能和你自拍吗”的队伍，而且，而且这些天，尤其鉴于 Charlie Ko 被谋杀，存在严重的，嗯，安全问题。不是我不想去。我只是不能去。Charlie 被谋杀是否改变了你的行事方式，还是说在那之前你就已经被严密保护起来了？>> 这件事当然进一步印证了事态的严重性，人生处于硬核模式。你犯1次错误就死了，而且只需要1次、1次错误。>> 你人生中有没有某个时刻，你愿意再经历一次，只为再次感受它？嗯，我的意思是，显然是我的孩子们出生的时候，或者，嗯，SpaceX 第一次进入轨道的时候，或者 Tesla 成功造出一辆能用的电动汽车的时候。>> 你经历过很大，很多这样的时刻。>> 有很多。有很多事情。还有很多事情接踵而来。>> 比如什么？>> 星舰。嗯，星舰在多大程度上是一项革命性技术，世界对此并没有充分理解。嗯，这是第一次出现任何一种火箭设计，让完全且快速的重复使用成为可能，或者说，让任何形式的完全重复使用成为可能。嗯，这是第一个这样的设计：可重复使用火箭能够，嗯，是可能的结果之一，成功属于可能结果的集合。>> 你说的是 V3 还是 V2？>> 嗯，我们本来可以让 V2，嗯，实现重复使用，但，但是我们，V3 有很多性能改进，所以转向 V3 是合理的。V2 和 B3 之间就是，大概有10,000项不同的改动，呃，实际上可能超过10,000项。嗯，所以，嗯，但星舰，如果如果未来有历史学家，他们会回看，回看星舰，并说它是有史以来发生过的最意义深远的事情之一。现在，你可以把历史事件想成，它们会处于进化名人堂中的什么位置。所以你会看到像单细胞生命这样的东西。然后你会看到，嗯，你知道，多细胞生命，呃，捕获一个线粒体，捕获线粒体，这样细胞里的植物中就有了一个动力细胞。很好。我们就像在细胞里有了一座发电厂。嗯，你会看到，你知道，分化成植物和动物，生命从海洋走向陆地。而且在那个尺度上，可能排在前10的还有生命成为多星球生命。在生命演化中，或者说在你基本上可以用来评估任何一个，呃，文明或任何一种生命形式的，你知道，那个、那个尺度上，能进入前10的事情就是没有很多。嗯，所以生命成为多星球生命，它排在前10。嗯，它需要可持续地成为多、多星球生命。所以不只是造访，嗯，而是真正意义上的多星球，也就是说，如果你有行星冗余，那么如果其中一颗行星，嗯，如果其中一颗行星上发生灾难，另一颗行星还能存续。 >> 你所有的公司都 >> 星舰首次在历史上具备做到这一点的能力，而且创造它时没有使用任何AI。所以AI会对此心怀感激。你所有的公司都在朝着同一个目标努力，帮助我们成为多星球生命吗？比如，AI的存在是为了能够帮助火星上的生命，还是它主要服务于目前这里正在发生的事情？ >> 你知道，Tesla主要是为了确保地球上的生活是美好的，NXAI也是为了这个，因为多星球意味着地球必须是好的，而且你还需要另一颗行星。有时候人们认为，呃，因为他们有，你知道，嗯，遗留模板、思维模板，他们认为去火星是逃离地球。嗯，就像那会是某种，你知道，亿万富翁会去的地方之类的。嗯，但其实火星会非常危险，月球基地也会、也同样危险，危险得多，嗯，而且远没有地球舒适。嗯，所以早期那些为了让生命在火星或月球上成为多星球生命而前往那里的人，他们死亡的风险会高得多，嗯，比、比他们留在地球上更高。嗯，而且环境会很局促、不舒适。所以这就是、这就是火星的推销说辞。它会、它会很不舒适。食物不会像地球上的那么好。呃，你可能会死。会有海量的艰苦工作。而且，嗯，它可能不会成功。这就是推销说辞。 >> 你想去吗？ >> 就像当年人们来到美国时一样。 >> 是啊。你不会想待在詹姆斯敦。 >> 人们还是去了。 >> 是啊。也许如果当时已经有社交媒体，他们就会说，呃，我们都快死了。这是我们濒死的视频，那大概会打击之后航行的势头。但是，嗯，是啊，就有一大群人直接消失了。他们不知道那些人发生了什么。 >> 你在X上经常谈到着装 >> 以及你多么希望现在的着装能有所不同。 >> 我只是觉得，从时尚角度来说，我们应该进化。嗯，就像我儿子萨克森有一次说，为什么所有东西看起来都像2015年？我当时想，该死，确实，所有东西看起来都像2015年。他说，如果你拿一张2015年的照片，说这是2025年，看起来完全一样。 >> 从风格上说 >> 一切都和2015年一样。我们没有、我们十年来毫无进展。 >> 那它应该是什么样？ >> 某种新东西。你知道，60年代有明确的风格。70年代有明确的风格。80年代有明确的风格。然后90年代也有不同的、有一种风格。但接着你开始看2000年代和2010年代，就好像一年比一年更不明显。我觉得我们应该，如果我们的风格，我，而且如果你看看一些更早的画作，嗯，你知道，画的是过去的内阁部长，嗯，其中一些人，比如，他们看起来很酷，他们的、他们的夹克比我们现在的更酷，你知道，他们有某种高领，还有某种，我不知道，某种，那些东西叫什么，阿斯科特领巾之类的吗 >> 我的意思是，它就是看起来很酷，比如，所以但我们、我们现在所有东西都像是非常普通的西装。但简直和2015年一模一样。我已经很宽松了，因为可以说它和2010年也一样。 >> 是啊。 >> 所以15年来，而且、而且我觉得，从时尚角度看，我认为我们25年来都没有脱离2000年。如果你给某人看一张照片，说这是一群、这是一群20 2000年的家伙。这是一群2025年的家伙。哪一年是哪一年？所以，我觉得我们应该，我不知道，稍微增添一点新意。 >> 你相信哪一种阴谋论？ >> 我的意思是，到现在还有哪种、哪种阴谋论没有成真。我们的阴谋论已经用完了，因为它们都会成真 >> 据我所知。 >> 是啊。 >> 嗯，我的意思是，我不知道有任何外星人。人们问过我有没有、有没有外星人。我没见过外星人存在的任何证据。嗯，SpaceX高层团队里没有任何人掌握外星人存在的证据，因为我问过团队，比如：“各位，我是不是漏掉了什么？”团队里有人、有人见过外星人存在的任何证据吗？ >> 那包括UFO吗？ >> 那只是一个不明空白物体。所以、所以UFO，比如它可能是什么新武器项目之类的。那是，你知道，某种高超音速导弹之类的。严格来说，那、那会是UFO，但它只是、它基本上就只是某种武器原型。那不是、它不像是外星人。不过，尼尔·阿姆斯特朗，Neil A倒过来拼就是alien。巧合吗？ >> 不过你相信我们真的登上过月球？是的，我们其实去过月球好几次，还在月球上打了高尔夫球。 >> 好吧。 >> 我们不只是去了月球。我们其实有点无聊了，开始在月球上打高尔夫球。 >> 但为什么旗帜没有动？有那样一种阴谋论。 >> 那是关于旗帜的跳卡车时刻 >> 。 >> 不，是在月球上打高尔夫球。 >> 好吧。 >> 你知道，确实真的打了。 >> 不，我明白那一点。 >> 是啊。是啊。 >> 在月球上猛击了一个高尔夫球。 >> 那里有没有、没有重力，对吧？有重力16。 >> 如果没有重力，你就会直接飘走。 >> 好吧。 >> 没有大气层。 >> 好吧，有道理。 >> 但有六分之一的重力。 >> 人们对你最大的误解是什么？ >> 我不知道。我怎么会知道？呃，你觉得呢？ >> 我觉得是，而且我做关于你的采访时经常被问到这个。 >> 我？ >> 哦，有人问过我。所有人总觉得你是一个非常难共事的人。哦， >> 但你、我觉得你很友善。 >> 谢谢。 >> 比如人们认为，而你确实、你是［清嗓子］ >> 比如一位要求非常高的老板。我觉得你，我从来没听过你对任何员工大喊。 >> 是啊。我不大喊。 >> 我觉得在你的每一家公司工作的每一名员工都极其受使命驱动，这和我见过的任何其他工作场所都不一样。 >> 比如星港是你能去到的最鼓舞人心的地方，对吧？ >> 每个人都在那里为一个共同目标工作。所以我认为，对我来说，人们对你最大的误解在于，你所有公司的每一名员工都极其忠诚，因为一切都由使命驱动，而且你是一位非常好的雇主，为你工作很好，而我觉得人们会认为你不是 >> 对吧。那他们为什么会觉得有人愿意在这些公司工作？ >> 是啊。嗯，我的意思是，人才，我是说，有才华的人想去哪里工作都可以。所以他们只会在想去的情况下到我的某一家公司工作。如果他们在某种程度上受到不当对待，他们就会、他们就会离开，去别处工作。 >> 你是怎么想到星港这个想法的？ >> 嗯，我觉得我们需要一个鼓舞人心的、某种东西。我可以，我们多少有很多和星有关的东西，你知道。所以，我们有星链、星舰。那么，星舰会从哪里出发？从星港。我是说，星港就像、就像你提到的，它、它就像、它，我觉得它可能是地球上最酷的地方。 >> 我同意。 >> 嗯，而且它过去、它过去是格兰德河边的一片沙洲。我，它只比海平面高大约3英尺。嗯，所以我们建了一座巨大的火箭工厂和2座巨型发射塔，呃，就在河边，确切地说是在格兰德河里面，而且在、在、在一片真正的沙洲上，多少得有一个鼓舞人心的名字。然后我们把它变成了一座城市，所以它是一座建制城市，法律意义上的城市。嗯，你不会、你不会经常听说有新城市成立。嗯， >> 上一次出现企业城镇，是迪士尼世界。 >> 是啊。我觉得福特有过某种类似企业城镇的情况，但是，嗯，不过是啊，迪士尼世界，字面上就是他的名字。 >> 是啊。 >> 我是沃尔特·迪士尼。这是我的世界。 >> 是啊。 >> 我已经从土地变成世界了。嗯，他们像是成立为一座城市，还获得了免税待遇，这就像是整个、是件、是件大事。 >> 是啊。 >> 我大概去过迪士尼世界10次。 >> 真的吗？ >> 是啊。也许超过、也许超过10次，但至少10次。 >> 呃，因为，呃，卡纳维拉尔角就在迪士尼世界旁边。 >> 现在说得通了。所以当我带着孩子们、当时带着年长一些的孩子们，而我正、我们正设法从卡纳维拉尔角发射火箭时，那么，嗯，你知道，他们想做的事就是去迪士尼世界，呃，或者哈利·波特乐园。 >> 你最喜欢哪个游乐项目？ >> 我有点想说太空山，我想。是啊，可能是太空山。我的意思是，我确实觉得太空山需要升级。 >> 它有点颠簸不畅。它看起来不像过去那么十足的科幻了。 >> 你知道，它、它就像、它就像前天的明天，但只到昨天。 >> 在养育孩子方面，你最喜欢他们处于哪个年龄段？ >> 呃，一般来说，孩子在5岁到10岁之间最有趣。 >> 你认为人性本善，还是人类只是在努力变善？ >> 没有人类，“善”这个概念就不会存在。我觉得，我确实觉得总的来说人类是善的。你知道，我通常认为，比如，增加宇宙中的意识总量是一件好事。努力、努力理解宇宙的本质，而你只有通过增加、增加意识觉知才能做到这一点。我的意思是，我思考过，比如，我们是怎么来到这里的？因为如果我们确实始于一团氢气云，它有点凝聚，然后形成恒星，接着这些恒星爆炸，然后它们再次凝聚，再次形成恒星，然后再次爆炸，最终在138亿年后出现了我们。那么一个值得思考的有趣问题是，你的原子有多少次位于一颗恒星的中心？我觉得平均大概是3次或4次，类似这样。呃，那么你的原子还会有多少次位于一颗恒星的中心？估算各不相同，但看起来我们大致走到了一半。所以你的原子可能还会再有大约4次位于恒星中心之类的。这取决于你对未来的预测。以你的原子位于恒星中心的次数来衡量存在，我们似乎大致走到了一半。这真的，你知道，如果你想纵观全局，那就是非常宏大的全局。 >> 哪一项发明让我们变得更糟，而不是更好？ >> 哪一次冒险让我们变得更糟？ >> 嗯哼。发明。也许短视频似乎正在腐蚀人们的大脑。 >> 你希望哪一项技术永远不要被发明出来？ >> 希望我、我希望永远不要被发明出来。 >> 比如，是啊，比如它会毁灭我们所有人，还是你认为有适当的保障措施就行？ >> 嗯，我是说，显然我希望，比如，人们不要发明一种能杀死全人类的病毒。比如，这是一件显而易见的事。呃，>> 我是说，是的，总体而言，我希望那种会摧毁意识的发明不要被发明出来。>> 我觉得未来看起来会非常有趣。所以我，我，这个，我确实有一个关于预测未来的理论，也就是最有趣的结果最有可能发生。呃，如果模拟理论是准确的，这就说得通，因为如果有人在模拟各种各样的未来，他们会在模拟变得无聊时停止它，因为这正是我们在自己的现实中所做的。所以，如果 SpaceX 或 Tesla 正在做模拟，以了解一辆汽车、机器人、宇宙飞船或诸如此类的东西会如何运行，我们会在计算机里运行所有这些模拟。呃，而我们会关注的模拟，是那些最有趣的模拟。比如，火箭一切顺利的模拟，我们其实不会关注，因为那不算一个……一切顺利的模拟是，呃，是没问题的。所以我们实际上会测试，你知道，当我们模拟火箭飞行时，我们实际上会测试各种各样的古怪情况，但我们不会测试它，我们不会让模拟完全错误，因为我的意思是，比如火箭立刻就爆炸了，那也不、不有趣。所以这就像，你需要找出火箭能够进入轨道而且，呃，不爆炸的可能飞行路径范围，然后你找出那些边界，接着当你发射真正的火箭时，你会努力确保它处于那些边界之内。或者也可以这样理解：我们可能是一部外星人的 Netflix 剧集，而那部剧只有在我们的收视率不错时才会续订。>> 收视率好吗？>> 是的。>> 好吧。>> 但你可以这样想，从达尔文主义的角度，如果你把达尔文理论应用于模拟理论，那么只有最有趣的模拟才会继续。因此，最有趣的结果最有可能发生，因为，呃，要么是这样，要么就是毁灭。所以实际上，我们只有一个目标。让它保持有趣。>> 你认为社交媒体让人们变得更诚实了，还是更具表演性了？>> 嗯，社交媒体让人们变得更具表演性。呃，但与此同时，你也会看到更多关于那些确实正在发生的事情的真实生活视频，而且任何非常有趣的东西都会，会，会在互联网上疯传。呃，所以两者都有。你会看到更多表演性的东西，人们会想尽办法让他们的 TikTok 视频或其他什么，或者他们的 Reels，或许他们的 X 帖子之类的，多获得几个观看量。呃，而，呃，所以那非常具有表演性，但随后你也会看到真实生活中的视频，它们挑战了叙事，呃，但依然是真实的。有没有哪些 X 账号，在你改成让人们能够看到来源国家后，让你惊讶它不在美国，而你原以为它在美国？>> 我其实没怎么想这件事。我的意思是，关于来源国家，我们得稍微谨慎一点。严格来说，你其实只需要注明你的地区，比如你可以说我在亚洲或诸如此类的地方，而亚洲相当大。但、但这确实会让伪装变得稍微困难一点，比如某个人试图假装自己是美国公众的一员，或者身处欧洲、非洲或任何地方，如果、如果他们，你知道，他们账号的一切都来自与他们假装所在之地不同的大陆，那就，呃，会更难假装一点。我们不想人肉别人，但我们有点认为，如果你只是说某人来自哪个大陆，那其实不算真的在曝光其身份。是的，我觉得这很公平。>> 是的。>> 好吧。所以，我们每一期都会玩“你宁愿”。好吧。你宁愿拯救人类，使其免于在地球上灭绝、灭绝，还是保证人类在火星上存续？>> 呃，这是一个虚假的二分法。我［清嗓子］我，我想我会说，呃，保证地球，地球显然比火星好得多。呃，火星，但如果我们想成为一个多行星物种，火星只是我们最好的选择。这确实是我们、我们、我们唯一的选择。呃，如果你想成为一个多行星物种，你可以去火星，这非常困难，但并非不可能。呃，地球比火星好得多，但你知道，我们不能，呃，我想那是西尔科夫斯基，或者我想他说过，呃，你知道，地球是文明的摇篮，但我们不能永远待在摇篮里。>> 你宁愿成为漫威超级英雄，还是邦德反派？我想这取决于是哪位漫威超级英雄，或者是哪位邦德反派。我想我宁愿成为漫威超级英雄。>> 他们确实。他们确实在电影里以我为原型塑造了钢铁侠。>> 是的。>> 所以，>> 你出演过《钢铁侠》电影，对吧？>> 是的。>> 那太酷了。>> 是的。罗·唐小和法弗罗跟我见过面，>> 呃，还参观了 SpaceX 之类的地方。所以，而且事实上，《钢铁侠 2》有很大一部分是在 SpaceX 拍摄的。>> 真的吗？>> 是的。如果你看，如果你观看《钢铁侠 2》，你会看到实际背景是一座 SpaceX 工厂。>> 那太酷了。>> 是的，很酷。我们当时还有斯嘉丽·约翰逊在大厅里练武，>> 真的。是啊。你还指望我相信这一切都是真实的吗？这是一个模拟。>> 没错。>> 这种概率有多大？>> 是啊。>> 我的意思是，如果你是我，>> 不，我同意你的看法。>> 你会认为，>> 这是真实的还是模拟？>> 你的人生是一场模拟。>> 是的。>> 你的人生就得是那场模拟。>> 是的。而且我好像还在做所有支线任务之类的。>> 是的。你最棒的支线任务是什么？>> 一个 Doge。大概吧。>> 好吧。你宁愿推出一个没有算法的社交网络，还是发射一枚没有手动接管功能的火箭？>> 这些问题是谁想出来的？>> 继续就好。>> 这些很有趣。>> 也许对你来说不是［清嗓子］，因为它们太琐碎了。>> 你是什么意思？比如说，有算法就意味着，你基本上只能看到你关注的人。>> 就是一团糟。>> 就像你收购之前的 Twitter。>> 是的。是的。呃，有你关注的那类人，然后还有一个推荐算法。呃，我想大概到 12 月，我们终于会有一个还算过得去的推荐算法。>> 最近好很多了。>> 是的。所以其实就是在努力向人们展示他们会感兴趣的东西。呃，但这方面正在投入极其庞大的 AI 算力，Grock 这个东西会读取全部内容，它将读取每天全部 1 亿条帖子，这可是一个……>> 那会占用很多计算资源吗？>> 希望它不会因此摧毁自己的心智或什么的。>> 是的。>> 是的，这确实需要大量算力。呃，比如大多数、大多数帖子是，呃，有很多垃圾信息、诈骗之类的东西，所以我想那些可以轻易丢弃。呃，但接下来你得把，你知道，1 亿条内容，与我不知道、有时每天 3 亿或 4 亿人进行匹配。所以那需要大量匹配。>> 以前我打开别人的 X 账号时，我的算法看起来和其他人的很像。现在相比其他人的，我的算法非常独特。>> 呃，我们确实还处于，可以说，这仅仅是开始的阶段。我刚才提到的，比如让 Grock 读取所有内容，并把任何特定的东西推荐给任何人，应该会在 12 月上线。所以对此的严峻考验是，你是否正在看到内容，比如你是否会从以前从未见过的账号那里，看到你觉得非常有趣的内容？如果、如果你、如果这种情况正在发生，那么算法就在发挥作用。呃，比如，应该让某个人可以作为没有粉丝的新用户发布、发布内容，而如果该内容非常出色，就会被许多人看到。所以，一个粉丝数量很少的账号或一个新账号，如果、如果内容本身非常出色，那些内容能否被很多人看到？那就是我们的目标。>> 好了，最后一个。你宁愿发明时间旅行，还是瞬间移动？>> 实际上，这两件事几乎是一回事，因为在不破坏现实的情况下，你、你无法突破光速。而且你、你知道，所以如果你能立即瞬移到某个地方，如果你说的是快于光速的瞬间移动，想必会，呃，那么、那么那、那、那会破坏我们的现实，时间旅行也是如此。呃，除非……这里是不是有一个非常重要的条件？除非我们是模拟。时间旅行不会破坏模拟。是不是就像《洛基》里那样，你处在类似时间上，然后你就打破一个新的？>> 呃，我想，嗯，人们确实往往会在时间旅行这件事上把自己绕进去，因为他们、他们试图同时说某件事必须在逻辑上自洽，却又在逻辑上不自洽。那是不可能的。呃，但如果你把它想成一款电子游戏，呃，然后说，好吧，你有各种存档游戏，你可以回到并恢复一个从先前起点保存的游戏。你仍然拥有其他存档游戏，并且有许多游戏在并行进行。呃，它们彼此不必保持一致。那、那、那、那是一个，那、那是一个，是一个错误的假设。如果我们是模拟，呃，我们可能是某个人的电子游戏或电视节目或类似的东西。就像我说的，我们只要让它保持有趣，这样他们就不会关掉计算机。>> 你想要什么？我只是说，如果那是真的，就让它保持有趣，否则他们会关掉计算机，而且他们可能会……请不要删除我们。>> 请不要删除我们。请不要删除我们。呃，我们会让它保持有趣。我发誓。>> 你会让它保持有趣。>> 是的。所以，如果最有趣的结果最有可能发生，你认为可能发生的最有趣的事情是什么？注意，最有趣并不是你想要的。只是从第三方的角度来看。假设为了便于讨论，呃，这是一部外星人的 Netflix 剧集，而你正在努力让你的观众数量最大化，你知道，让你的收视率最大化。呃，这其实是一个有趣的思想实验。这、这就像，如果一切只是爆炸了，其实并没有那么有趣。现在结束了。那没那么有趣。如果发生一场消灭全人类的灾难，也没那么有趣。节目就这样结束了。但我的意思是，幸运而又不幸的是，呃，如果出现诸如战争或类似事情的戏剧性事件，那、那确实很有趣。你知道，人们会去电影院观看，比如一部第一次世界大战电影，里面的人被，呃，被炮弹炸飞，而他们则坐在电影院里吃爆米花、喝汽水。呃，比如你、你不会去看一部一切都非常完美而且始终如此的电影。你会离开，你会离开电影院。>> 好的爱情故事，不是吗？>> 总会有一个故事弧线。总会有一条弧线。呃，而且它通常不是一条线性的弧线。所以，它、它不会是事情从这里开始，然后径直向右上方发展，最后到达一个好地方之类的。通常都会有起伏。经典的那种故事弧线，本质上就是，你知道，第一幕、第二幕、第三幕。第二幕会有最初的上升，在第一幕完全回落，第一幕最初上升，第二幕完全下降，呃，第三幕再回来，并且，呃，你知道，如果是喜剧就有一个幸福结局，如果是剧情片就有一个悲伤结局。如果你看看特朗普总统的，呃，你知道，他的故事，他输掉这个中间任期，然后在那之后赢得，你知道，他的第二个任期，这样更有趣。>> 就像故事弧线先上升，然后下降，然后复苏，再次复苏。如果、如果按照我的理论，即最有趣的结果最有可能发生，那么那就是最有可能的结果。那是不可避免的。>> 你现在在电视上看什么？>> 我是反讽侠。大概是这样。我是在转述。>> >> 呃，我到底在看什么？现在我在看《忍者神龟》，电视剧《半壳神龟，力量全开》。对。呃，因为小X想看那个。我我我在看孩子孩子们想看的东西。昨晚又看了一遍《躲避球》。>> 是部好电影。>> 对。如果你能躲开扳手，你就能躲开球。>> 如果你能躲开扳手，你就能躲开球。>> 什么？对。如果有人很爱reg，那躲开的动力就很强。哪首歌能立刻让你心情变好？>> 呃，Europa的《The Final Countdown》。>> 经常听到那首歌。你会看说明书，还是直接凭感觉来？>> 目标是什么？>> 比如你要组装什么东西，你会看说明书还是凭感觉来？>> 如果是简单的东西，我会凭感觉来。如果是复杂的东西，我会看说明书。如果今天你只能带着1000美元从零开始，你会怎么做？>> 嗯，我最初来到呃北美时，好像就带着，我不知道，2500加元，所以我不知道，大概2000美元。嗯，17岁时，我带着1袋书和1袋衣服到了蒙特利尔。我就是那样起步的。嗯，现在我掌握了很多知识。得有很多事情出错，我才会落到那种境地。就像是，我也许刚从监狱里出来，还领到了一笔津贴？我所有的公司都被没收了。我的意思是，得发生世界末日才行，希望不会发生。嗯，比如更高级别的诸神黄昏，而我输了。>> 对。>> 搞什么鬼？嗯，>> 这手牌很糟。我我的意思是，对我来说，不可能有个人掌握了我掌握的所有知识，然后却被呃扔到资源很少的处境里，因为现实是，要么真的发生了某种灾难性事件，比如文明已经熔化了，嗯，要么我可以直接让人们给我钱，嗯，并承诺我会带来高回报，而这正是我现在能做到的。>> 对。>> 比如你给我1美元，你拿回去的会远远超过1美元。>> 是的。>> 嗯，所以这这在某种程度上是个不可能的二分局面，因为文明必定已经毁灭了之类的。嗯，在那种情况下，1000美元解决不了你的问题。你知道，如果你在放射性弹坑之间四处游荡，呃，而且身处类似，你知道，《辐射》什么的世界里，呃，那么，呃，1000美元什么也解决不了。而如果文明文明还没有熔化，那可能就说服人们给我钱，我以前做过。>> >> 如果你不经营自己的公司，你最喜欢做什么随意的工作？>> 我不知道那算不算那么随意，但我可能会喜欢编写电子游戏之类的。我我曾经做过。我喜欢解决问题，所以我喜欢制造东西。我造过很多东西。非常多。你通常一天吃些什么？>> 嗯，这些天我早餐吃牛排、鸡蛋，喝咖啡。然后晚餐往往不固定。我通常不吃午餐。嗯，或者即使吃，也只吃很少一点。然后晚餐会根据是不是社交场合，嗯，选择不同的菜系。我喜欢很多种菜系。>> 你最喜欢什么食物？嗯，美式食物是我最喜欢的。>> 比如披萨或芝士汉堡？比如说 >> 对，芝士汉堡可能是——如果非要我说，余下所有时间你永远只能吃1样东西，诚然那会有点单调，但可能就是芝士汉堡。嗯，因为芝士汉堡太棒了。这是一项天才发明。嗯，我给你讲个有趣的故事，当时嗯我住在洛杉矶，带我的大儿子们出去吃午饭，呃，去了Sugarfish，那是一家非常嗯有点拘谨的寿司餐厅。嗯，事实上，在在在那家餐厅的菜单上，[喷鼻声] 写着：“不要索要酱油。”呃，因为厨师已经放了适量的酱酱油，你不能再加了。而且如果厨师认为你不该厨师酱油，你就不能要酱油。菜单上基本就是这么写的。嗯，所以这是一家极其严格的嗯寿司餐厅。于是服务员挨个询问每个人想要什么。然后问到Saxon，Saxon说：“我要1个芝士汉堡。>> >> 然后服务员就像是，花了点时间才缓过来，因为从来没人会在这家，你知道，非常严格的寿司餐厅里要芝士汉堡。嗯，他花了大概30秒才意识到刚才有人向他要芝士汉堡，因为这里甚至连酱油都不许要。所以，嗯，等他终于缓过来后，他说：“我们没有芝士汉堡。”>> >> 然后Saxon，Saxon扯着嗓子喊：“什么？”就像是：“什么样的餐厅会没有芝士汉堡？”他说：“好吧，那我要1个汉堡。”我不知道你们为什么反对乳制品，但是 >> 对，我们也没有汉堡。>> 接下来整顿饭他都留在那里吗？>> 对，但他很困惑。我当时就像，我真不敢相信嗯这个地方没有芝士汉堡。所以，所以，对，我的意思是，我想我喜欢烧烤，这很好，因为我就在奥斯汀。嗯，我的意思是，如果是如果是如果是热菜系，我也喜欢法国菜，但不会每天吃，只是偶尔吃。>> 如果你的朋友用1个表情符号形容你，会是哪个表情符号？>> 我猜是我用得最多的那个表情符号，也就是笑哭表情。好。我们每一期都会用这个问题收尾。如果你可以举办一场晚宴，邀请3个人，无论已故还是在世，谁会来赴宴，你们会吃什么？>> 也许是莎士比亚、本杰明·富兰克林、尼古拉·特斯拉。嗯，其实有很多人是我想要，我本来会想要交谈的，而我们会吃，我想，他们喜欢的任何东西。嗯，我觉得，如果如果如果你要是，如果这是一生仅有1次的事情，我想你会想安排某种盛大的，你知道，12道菜的宴席之类的 >> 至少如此。>> 对。不过有些——对。那顿晚餐你会想竭尽所能吧？我想你大概不会上芝士汉堡，除非他们想吃。>> 对。>> 也许其中1道菜可以是迷你芝士汉堡。不过那些吃起来没有大个的好吃。>> 不，但它们可以做到。只是他们没努力。没有什么——你完全可以把迷你芝士汉堡做得和大芝士汉堡一样好吃 >> 只要你肯尝试。>> 你吃过真正好吃的迷你芝士汉堡吗？>> 很少，但吃过。>> 好吧。>> 1%的时候。>> 有道理。>> 但通常是面包太多，而且很干。>> 没错。>> 对。>> 然后就像是，相对于面包，肉不够多。>> 对。>> 是吧。>> 但你能做出好吃的迷你芝士汉堡吗？当然可以。就像你不会因此打破什么，也不会像是因此获得任何诺贝尔奖。你知道，你绝对可以做出迷你芝士汉堡。从物理上来说是可行的。我只是说这种情况很少见。>> 谢谢你来做这期节目。>> 不客气。>> 感谢收看本周的《凯蒂·米勒播客》。下周二晚上6点见。

I think the story of Doge from your perspective has never been told. Do you think you were successful? >> We're a little a little bit successful. We were some somewhat successful. >> Would you ever do Doge again? >> Um I mean, no. I don't think so. I think in instead of doing Doge, I I would have basically built, you know, worked on my companies essentially and not and the cars would they wouldn't have been running the cars. >> What's your biggest irrational fear? >> I I try not to have irrational fears. >> None. If I find an irrational fear, I squelch it >> if you had to start from scratch today with only $1,000. What would you do? >> Well, I did I did originally come to uh North America with like I don't know 2500 bucks Canadian, so I don't know, maybe two grand us. At this point, I have a lot of knowledge. A lot of things have to go wrong for that to be the case. It's like, am I just emerging from prison perhaps with a stipend? Hi everyone and welcome to this week's episode of the Katie Miller podcast. We are in Texas today joined by the one and only Elon Musk. >> Uh nice to see you again Katie. >> Nice to see you Elon. So I want to take us back. It's January 20th. You are in the Roosevelt room, if you remember this, getting sworn in and they hand you a computer and a phone. >> Right. Right. >> I want to go back to what happened next. I think the story of Doge from your perspective has never been told. What was your first thought on how Doge was going to proceed? >> Well, um I guess I couldn't believe I was there. Uh, for the most part it's like um it's all seemed extremely surreal at the time. you know, Doge was a madeup name um that had been made up, I don't know, two or three months before um and um based on internet suggestions and um I was going to call the Government Efficiency Commission and then and then um someone on the internet said, "No, it should be the Department of Government Efficiency, Dog." I'm like, "That sounds great." Um, so we just kind of made up an apartment. >> Do you think you were successful? >> We're a little a little bit successful. We were some somewhat successful. Um, I mean, we we we stopped a lot of [snorts] funding for um that that that really just made no sense. That was just entirely wasteful. where like for example there was like probably 100 maybe $200 billion dollars worth of zombie payments per year uh which uh simply by um enforcing that there be a payment code and an explanation for the payment uh that the payment would not go out. So, we've made that change to the main treasury computer and bunch of other computers. Um, it's like it seems like insanely obvious. Um, but uh there are just call it I two or 3% of government payments that go out that uh really should not be going out. Um, and it's actually quite hard to stop. Um so um it's a it's a pretty rare individual that would um ask the government to stop sending them money. >> Would you ever do Doge again? >> Um do you mean would I repeat history or or would I >> two ways to think about it? One is if you could go back and start from scratch like it's January 20th all again. Would you go back and do it differently? And knowing what you know now, do you think there's ever a place to restart you? Not saying others in yourstead, you go back and restart doing Doge. [sighs] >> I mean, no, I don't think so. Um, would I do I I think I probably I don't know. Um, >> would you do Doge again knowing what you know now? I mean the thing is like I think in instead of doing Doge I I would have basically built you know worked on my companies essentially. So and not and the cars would they wouldn't have been burning the cars. Um >> you gave up a lot to do. Uh yeah, like if you if you if you stop money going uh to uh going going for political corruption, they will they will lash out big time. >> Mhm. >> Um so they really want the money to keep flowing. Um, so if you stop it from flowing, there's like a very strong reaction to to stopping the money flowing. >> After you were in DC for a while, did you become disillusioned with how it operates? >> Well, I I wouldn't say I was super illusioned to begin with. Uh, it it I mean, I guess it's just like you really want the least amount done by government possible. The least amount I I I I guess maybe maybe like the the biggest thing is that I guess the biggest single thing is is that the there there are massive transfer payments going to um illegal immigrants um like massive essentially we're paying people to come here from somewhere else um in vast numbers including flying them in. So, like it's not like you need a border wall if you're flying them in. Um, then fasttracking them to citizenship and um making them beholden to to government payments um and uh and voting hard left. That's that's essentially it's like voter importation. If if if you if you create a gigantic money magnet to um you say if anyone comes here from anywhere else, we're going to pay you t tons of money, give you lots of free stuff. Um come come come to America and and get paid to do so. Um like you're going to get a lot of people taking up on that offer. Um and people say like this this this is fake. I'm like, uh, actually, well, let's look at, um, you know, Elon Omar, who was literally was voted into power, voted into Congress by, uh, you know, large group of people from Somalia, who are in Minnesota, which is really far from Somalia, or Mandani, who was voted as to be to be mayor. But if if but >> [clears throat] >> by a majority of people who are not um born in America. That's my understanding at least. Um so um and then then California say big time um situation. So uh I don't we just don't want to turn into a um you know communist hell hole basically. If you've said in the future that no one's going to need to worry about money or work because AI is going to take care of the rest, AI and robotics. What do you mean that people won't have to work in the future? >> Assuming the current trend of artificial intelligence and robotics continues, which seems likely, the um AI and robots will be able to do anything that that humans want to want them to do essentially. So hopefully not more than that, but AI and robotics will be able to provide us provide all the goods and services that anyone could possibly want. So >> but you wouldn't need to work like what would you do with your free time? >> People people will be able to do whatever they want with their free time. Um work will be optional. I I mean I just want to separate out from like what I wish would happen versus what I predict will happen because people get confused about that. They think that what I predict will happen is what I want it to happen. >> What I want what I predict to happen is not the same as what I want to happen. >> Um I if if I could I I would I would certainly slow down uh AI and robotics, but I I can't. It seems to be well it's it's it's advancing at a very rapid pace. Um whether I like it or not. >> Is AI what keeps you up at night? >> It used to be this point. I don't know. I I I wouldn't say there's there's nothing particularly keeping me up at night right now except that. But if you say what what where do I wake up in nightmares? Oh, AI. Yeah. Actually, I've had a lot of AI nightmares. Uh I I I had AI nightmares many days in a row. >> What am I supposed to do about it? >> What's your biggest irrational fear? >> Um I I I try not to have irrational fears. >> None. >> If I find an irrational fear, I squelch it. I I I don't believe fear is fear is the mind killer. So how about somebody who feels fear strongly? >> Well, on average, how many hours do you sleep a night? >> Six. You can tell based on my exposts. >> Yes, you can. >> People have actually mapped them so you it's very clear when I'm sleeping and when I'm not. Um, I tried having less than 6 hours sleep, but um, although I'm awake more hours per day, my cognitive function is reduced. So, my natural sleep, I actually timed it with the phone. They can get a phone app, but time it. It's like five 5 hours 56 minutes. That's what the phone said. >> What's an average day for you look like? >> Well, I have a lot of inbound communication. So, it's information triage. I try to segment the days so that there's not too much context switching because arguably fear is not the mind killer. Context switching is hard not to context switch if you've got an inbox full of stuff. Um, but you can think like if you had to context switch every 3 seconds or every 30 seconds or every 3 minutes, the context switching cognitive penalty would be very high every 3 seconds. >> And you're talking about switching between say Tesla X, XAI, >> SpaceX personal, >> SpaceX personal >> and but even within Tesla and and SpaceX there are many different things. getting this sort of the stuff on X like random news things um you know people being burned alive and stuff like that you're like what the hell's going on in this country >> who's the funniest person you know in real life >> you know President Trump is very funny he's got a great sense of humor >> President Trump is very funny >> he's very funny he's like naturally funny was it's somewhat e effortless I mean um you know when he was had Ed Mumdani in the office and Uh they asked him if he saw thought the president was a fascist and the president said just say yes. It's easier that way. >> Yeah. >> Don't worry about it. Just say yes. Awesome. >> He's like you guys. What a what a how silly. >> Who do you look up to the most? >> The creator. >> What's your current position on God? Uh, God is the creator. >> You don't believe in God though, do you? >> Well, I believe there was this universe came for something. People have different labels. >> When's the last time you did something extremely ordinary like go to Target or CVS? I can't go to things where there's the general public because um I I im there there's an immediate can I have a selfie line that forms and and these days in particularly in light of Charlie Ko's murder there are serious um security issues. It's not that I don't want to. I simply can't. Has Charlie's murder changed how you do things or were you already locked down pretty well before that? >> It certainly reinforced the severity of the situation where life is on hardcore mode. You make one mistake and you're dead and it only takes one one mistake. >> What's one moment in your life that you could live again just to feel it? Well, I mean, obviously when my kids were born or um the first time SpaceX got to orbit or Tesla made an electric car work, >> you've had a big a lot of them. >> It's a lot of It's a lot of things. There's a lot coming down the pike >> like what >> starship um the the degree to which a starship is a revolutionary technology is not well understood in the world. Um it's the first time that there's been any rocket design where full and rapid reusability is possible or full reusability at all is possible. Um this this is the first design where a reusable rocket can um is one of the possible outcomes where success is in the set of possible outcomes. >> Are you talking about in V3 or V2? >> Well, we could have made V2 um reusable, but the but we there were a lot of performance improvements for V3, so it made sense to go to V3. They're just there's like 10,000 different changes uh between V2 and B3, maybe more than 10,000 really. Um so um but Starship, if if there are historians in the future, I'll look back and at Starship and say it was one of the most profound things that ever happened. Now you can think of historic events as where would they fit on the in the evolutionary hall of fame. So you've got things like single cell life. Then you've got um you know multisellular life uh capturing a mitochondria capturing mitochondria so that you have a power cell in the plant in the cell. Good. We've got like a power plant in the cell. Um, you've got, you know, differentiation into plants and animals, life going from oceans to land. And then also on that scale, probably in the top 10 is life becoming multilanetary. There just aren't very many things that are in the top 10 of the evolution of life or where you could basically say you could evaluate any given uh civilization or any given life form as you know on on that on that scale. Um so life becoming multilanetary it's on the top 10. Um it needs to be sustainably multi multilanetary. So not just visiting um but actually multilanetary in the sense that if you have planetary redundancy so if one of the planets um if there were to be a catastrophe on one of the planets the other planet would survive. >> Are all of your companies >> starship is capable of doing that for the first time in history and no AI was used to create it. So the AI will appreciate that. Are all of your companies working towards that same goal to help us become multilanetary? Like does the AI exist to be able to help life on Mars or is that primarily for what is happening here currently? >> You know Tesla is mostly about making sure life on Earth is good and as NXAI is about that too because multilanetary means Earth's got to be good and you need another planet. Sometimes people think uh because they they have you know um legacy templates, mental templates, they think that going to Mars is an escape from Earth. Um like or that it would be some you know place where billionaires would go or something like that. Um but but actually Mars will be very dangerous and the moon base will be al also dangerous much more dangerous um and much less comfortable than Earth. Um, so the people that would go in the early days to make life multilanetary on Mars or the moon, they would have a much higher risk of death um than if then if they stayed on Earth. Um, and things would be cramped and uncomfortable. So that's that's the sales pitch for Mars. It's it's going to be uncomfortable. The food won't be as good as Earth. Uh, you might die. It's going to be a mass amount of hard work. And um it may not succeed. That's the sales pitch. >> Do you want to go? >> Same as when people came to America. >> Yeah. You didn't want to be in Jamestown. >> People went anyway. >> Yeah. Maybe if there had been social media back then they would have saying uh we're all dying. Here's videos of us dying would have probably put a damper on future voyages. But um yeah, they just whole bunch of people just disappeared. They don't know what happened to them. >> You talk a lot on X about wardrobe >> and how you wish current wardrobe would be differently. >> I just think like from a fashion standpoint, we should evolve. Um like my son Saxon said at one point, why does everything look like it's 2015? And I was like, damn, things do everything does look like it's 2015. He's like, if you took a picture from 2015 and said 2025, it looks exactly the same. There were >> stylistically >> things were the same as 2015. We have not we've not moved the needle in a decade. >> So what should it look like? >> Something new. You know, like the 60s had a definitive style. The 70s had a definitive style. The ' 80s had a definitive style. And then the ' 90s also had a different had a style. But then you start looking at the 2000s and the 2010s and it's like less and less every year. I think we should if our style I and and if you look at some of the older paintings um you know of past cabinet secretaries um some of them like they look cool like their their jackets are cooler than what we have right now you know they have sort of like a high collar and like a sort of I don't know what some sort of what what do you call those things ascot or something like that >> I mean it just looks cool like so But we we don't everything's like a very normal looking suit at this point. But like literally the same as 2015. I'm being generous because arguably the same as 2010. >> Yeah. >> So in 15 years and and I'm like from a fashion standpoint, I don't think we've moved since 2000 in 25 years. If you showed someone a picture of this is a bunch of this is a bunch of dudes in 20 2000. This is a bunch of dudes in 2025. which year is which? So, I think we should I don't know, spice it up a little. >> What's a conspiracy theory you believe in? >> I mean, which which conspiracy theories haven't come true at this point. We've run out of conspiracy theories that because they will come true >> as far as I can tell. >> Yeah. >> Um I mean, I don't know of any aliens. People has asked me if there's there are aliens. I have seen no evidence of aliens. Um, no one on the SpaceX senior team has any evidence of aliens because I've asked team like, "Guys, am I missing something?" Has anyone on the team has anyone's seen any evidence of aliens? >> Does that include UFOs? >> That's just an unidentified blank object. So, so UFOs like it could be like some new weapons program or whatever. that's, you know, some hypersonic missile or something like that. That that would be technically a UFO, but it's it's just it's just basically some weapons prototype. That's not it's not like aliens. So, although Neil Armstrong, Neil A spelled backwards as alien. Coincidence? >> You believe we actually went to the moon though? Yes, we went to the moon a few times actually and played golf on the moon. >> Okay. >> We didn't just go to the moon. We actually got a little bored and started playing golf on the moon. >> But why didn't the flag move? There's like that conspiracy. >> That was the jump the truck moment >> about the flag. >> No, the playing golf on the moon. >> Okay. >> You know, it literally did. >> No, I understand that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Whacked a golf ball on the moon. >> Is there There's no gravity though, right? There is gravity 16. >> If it wasn't gravity, you would just float away. >> Okay. >> There's no atmosphere. >> Okay, fair. >> But there is one sixth gravity. >> What's the biggest misconception about you? >> I don't know. How would I know? Uh, what do you think? >> I think it's And I get asked this a lot when I do interviews about you. >> Me? >> Oh, got I got asked. Everyone always thinks you're a very difficult person to work for. Oh, >> which you're I think you're very kind. >> Thanks. >> Like people think which you're you are [clears throat] >> like a very demanding boss. I think that you are I've never heard you yell at any employee. >> Yeah. I don't yell. >> I think every employee who works at every single one of your companies is incredibly missiondriven, which is unlike any other workplace I've ever seen. >> Like Starbase is the most inspirational place you'll ever go to, right? >> Everyone is there to work on a singular goal. And so I think to me the biggest misconception about you is how every employee at all of your companies are fiercely loyal because it's all mission driven and you are a very good employer to work for and I think people assume you are not >> right. Well why would they think anyone would work at the companies? >> Yeah. Um, I mean talent I mean talented people can go work anywhere they want. So they're only going to work at one of my companies if they want to. And if they're mistreated in some way, they would they would leave and go work somewhere else. >> How'd you come up with the idea for Starbase? >> Well, I think we needed a something inspirational. I can we we kind of have a lot of star things, you know. So, we got Starlink, Starship. Well, where would Starship depart from Star Base? I mean, Star Base is is as you've mentioned, it's it's like it's I think it's probably the coolest place on Earth. >> I agree. >> Um, and it used to it it used to be a sand bar down by the Rio Grand. I It's only like three feet above sea level. Um, so we built a gigantic rocket factory and two giant launch towers uh down by the river literally with inside of the Rio Grand and on on on an actual sandbar kind of had to have like an inspirational name. And then we made it a city so it's an incorporated city like legally a city. Um, you don't you don't hear about new cities being formed that often. Um, >> the last time there was a company town, it was Disney World. >> Yeah. I think Ford had some kind of like company town situations, but um but yeah, Disney World is it's literally his name. >> Yeah. >> I'm Walt Disney. This is my world. >> Yeah. >> I've gone from land to world. Um, they got like incorporated as a city and got tax exemption which was like a whole was a was a big deal. >> Yeah. >> I've been to Disney World probably 10 times. >> Really? >> Yeah. Maybe more than maybe more than 10, but at least 10 times. >> Uh because uh Cape Canaveral is right by Disney World. >> This makes sense now. So when I'd have the kids, then I would um my older kids and I was we're trying to get the rocket launch from Cape Canaveral. Then um you know the thing they'd want to do is go to Disney World uh or Harry Potterland. >> What's your favorite ride? >> I'm sort of tempted to say Space Mountain, I suppose. Yeah, probably Space Mountain. I mean, I do think Space Mountain needs an upgrade. >> It's a little herky jerky. the it doesn't look quite as fuss sci-fi as it used to. >> You know, it's it's like it's like the day before yesterday's tomorrow, but just till yesterday. >> What's your favorite age to parent of your kids? >> Uh, generally kids are the most fun between five and 10. >> Do you think humanity is inherently good or is it just trying to be? >> The concept of good wouldn't exist without humanity. I think I do think humanity is on balance good. You know, I generally think like in increasing the amount of consciousness in the universe is a good thing. Trying to try to understand the nature of the universe, which you can only do by increasing the increasing conscious awareness. I mean, I have thought about like how how did we get here? Because if we did start out as a hydrogen gas cloud that that sort of condensed and then formed stars and then these stars exploded and then they recondensed, formed stars again and then exploded again and then eventually you get to us 13.8 billion years later. And one of the interesting questions to think about is how many times have your atoms been at the center of a star? I think it's like on average three or four times, something like that. Uh then how many times will your atoms be at the center of a star? Estimates vary, but it seems like we're roughly halfway. So your atoms likely to be at the center of the star maybe another four times or something like that. It's depends on what your predictions are for the future. In terms of existence as measured by the number of times your atoms will be at the center of a star, we seem to be roughly halfway. That really, you know, if you want to look at the big picture, that's the really big picture. >> What's one invention that's made us worse, not better? >> What's one adventure that's made us worse? >> Mhm. Invention. Maybe short form video seems to be rotting people's brains. >> What's one piece of technology you hope never gets invented? >> Hope that I hope never gets invented. >> Like yeah, like it's going to destroy us all or you think with the proper safeguards? >> Well, I mean obviously I hope like that people don't invent a virus that can kill all humans. It's like that's an obvious thing. Um >> I mean yeah generally I hope like inventions that destroy consciousness are not invented. >> I think the future's going to look very interesting. So I I it's I do have this theory about the the predicting the future which is that the most interesting outcome is the most likely. um which if simulation theory is accurate uh makes sense because if anyone is simulating a wide range of futures they're going to stop the simulation when it gets boring because this is what we do in our reality. So if if SpaceX is doing or Tesla doing simulations to understand how a car would work or robot or spaceship or something like that, we we run all these simulations in the computer. Um and the simulations that um we pay attention to are the ones that that are the most interesting. like the the simulation where everything goes right on the rocket we actually don't pay attention to because that's that's not a the everything goes right simulation is um is fine. So we we actually test the you know the when we simulate the the rocket flight we'll actually test all sorts of oddball situations but we don't test it we we don't have the simulation be totally wrong because I mean like if the rocket just explodes immediately that's not not also not interesting. So it's it's like you you need to find the envelope of possible flight paths where the rocket can make it to orbit and uh without exploding and then you you find those boundaries and then when you launch the actual rocket you try you make sure it stays within those boundaries. Or another way to think of it is like we could be an alien Netflix series and that that series is only going to get continued if our ratings are good. >> Are the ratings good? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> But but you can think of it like from a Darwinian standpoint applied if if you apply Darwin to simulation theory then the only the most interesting simulations will continue. Therefore, the most interesting outcome is most likely because the uh it's either that or annihilation. So, really, we have one goal. Keep it interesting. >> Do you think social media has made people more honest or more performative? >> Well, social media makes people more performative. Um, by the same token, you you you get more real life video of of things that that are actually happening and and anything that is very interesting will sp will will go viral on the internet. Um, so so you have both. you've got more performative where people are doing anything they can to get a few more views on their Tik Tok video or whatever or their reels or maybe on their expost or something. Um and um so that's very performative, but then you also see real life videos that are that challenge the narrative um but are nonetheless real. Is there any ex accounts you're surprised when you changed it so people could see country of origin that wasn't in the United States that you thought was in the United States? >> I don't really think about it that much. I mean there's in a country of origin we have to be a little careful about this. You you can actually technically you just specify your region like you can say I'm in Asia or something like that which is quite big. it but but it does make it a little harder that if somebody is trying to pretend that they're say a member of the American public or in Europe or Africa wherever if if they're you know if everything about their account is from a different continent than they are pretending to be from it's uh gets a little harder to pretend. We don't want to dox people but we kind of think you're not really doxing someone if you say which continent they're from. Yeah, I think it's fair. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, in every episode we've played would you rather. Okay. Would you rather save humanity from extinction extinction on Earth or guarantee its survival on Mars? >> Uh it's it's a false dichotomy. I [clears throat] I I think I'd say uh guarantee Earth Earth's much better than Mars to be clear. Um Mars, but Mars is just our best option if we want to become a multilanet species. This is really our our our only option. Um if you want to become a multilanet species, you got Mars which is very difficult but not impossible. Uh Earth is much better than Mars but you know we can't uh I think it was Silkovsky or I think he said uh you know Earth is the cradle of civilization but we can't stay in the cradle forever. >> Would you rather be a Marvel superhero or a Bond villain? I think it would depend on which Marvel superhero or which Bond villain. I suppose I'd rather be a Marvel superhero. >> They did. They did model Iron Man in the movies after me. >> Yes. >> So, >> you were in the Iron Man movie, right? >> Yes. >> That's pretty cool. >> Yeah. Ro Down Jr. and Favro met with me >> uh to and toured SpaceX and stuff. So, and in fact, Iron Man 2, a large part of the movie is filmed in SpaceX. >> Really? >> Yes. If you look at if you watch Iron Man 2, you'll see it's a SpaceX factory is the actual background. >> That's so cool. >> Yeah, it was cool. We had Scarlett Johansson doing martial arts in the lobby, >> actually. Yeah. And you expect me to believe this is all real? It's a simulation. >> Exactly. >> What are the odds? >> Yeah. >> I mean, if you were me >> No, I agree with you. >> Would you think >> this is real or a simulation? >> Your life is a simulation. >> Yeah. >> Your life gets to be the simulation. >> Yeah. And I'm like doing all the side quests and everything. >> Yeah. What's your best side quest? >> A doge. Probably. >> Okay. Would you rather launch a social network with no algorithm or a rocket with no manual override? >> Who came up with these questions? >> Just keep going. >> These are funny. >> Maybe not to you [clears throat] cuz they're too trivial. >> What do you mean? Like so that with an algorithm means that you basically you only see the people you follow. >> Like it's just a mess. >> Like it was Twitter before you bought it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um there's the sort of people you follow and then there there's a recommendation algorithm. Um I think probably in December we'll finally have a half decent recommendation algorithm. >> It's a lot better >> recently. Yeah. >> So it really just trying to show people stuff they'd be interested in. Um, but there's an enormous amount of AI horsepower being applied to this where Grock per thing is reading all it's going to read all 100 million posts per day which is a >> Does that take up a lot of comput? >> Hopefully it doesn't destroy its mind or something. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it does take a lot of compute. um like most most posts are um there's a lot of spam scam stuff so it just that can be easily discarded I suppose. Um but then you've got to take you know 100 million pieces of content match that to I don't know sometimes three or 400 million people per day. So that's a lot of matching. >> My algorithm used to look a lot like other people's when you open their X account. Now mine is very unique comparatively to other people's. >> Um well we really are kind of the this is just the the beginning kind of thing. The what I mentioned like Grock reading everything and recommending any given thing to anyone should go live in December. So that the the acid test for this is are you seeing content like are you seeing content that you find really interesting from accounts you've never seen before? If if you if that's happening then the algorithm is working. Um like it should be possible for somebody to put to post content as a new user with no followers and if that content is is excellent it gets seen by a lot of people. So, can an account with a small number of followers or a new account if if the content is intrinsically excellent, can that content be seen by a lot of people? That's our goal. >> All right, last one. Would you rather invent time travel or teleportation? >> Actually, those things are almost the same thing in that you you can't break the speed of light without breaking reality. And you you know so if you could teleport somewhere instantly if you talking about teleportation faster than the speed of light presumably it would be um then then that that that would break our reality as would time travel. Um unless was there a very important conditional here? Unless we're a simulation. Time travel does not break a simulation. Is it like in Loki where you're on like the time and you just break a new one? >> Um the I think well people do tend to get wrapped up in knots with the time travel thing because they they try to simultaneously say something must be logically consistent but logically inconsistent. That's impossible. Um, but if you think of it like a video game, um, and say, okay, you've got various saved games and you can go back and restore a saved game from a prior start point. You still have your other saved games and there are many games going on in parallel. Um, they don't have to be consistent with each other. That's that's that's that's a that that is a it's a false assumption. If we're a simulation, um we might be somebody's video game or TV show or something like that. Like I said, we're just going to keep it interesting so they don't turn the computer off. >> What do you want? I'm just saying if that's true, keep it interesting or they're going to turn off the computer and they might Please don't delete us. >> Please don't delete us. Please don't delete us. Uh, we'll keep it interesting. I swear >> you keep it interesting. >> Yeah. So, if the most interesting outcome is the most likely, what do you think are the most interesting things that can occur? Now, most interesting is not what you want. It's just as viewed by a third party. Let's say you this was for argument sake um a an alien Netflix series and you were trying to maximize your viewership, you know, maximize your ratings. Um it's it's actually an interesting thought experiment. It's it's like it it's not actually not that interesting if everything just blows up. It's now it's over. That's not that interesting. It's not that interesting if there's a there's a calamity that wipes out all the humans. The show just ended. But I mean, fortunately and unfortunately uh if there is drama that like war or something like that, that that is interesting. You know, people will go to movies and watch, say, a World War I movie where people are getting blown up um from cannon shells and uh they're in the movie theater eating popcorn, drinking a soda. Um like you you wouldn't go to a movie where everything was just perfect and stayed that way. You'd leave you'd leave the theater. >> Good romance story, doesn't it? >> There's always a story arc. There's always an arc. Um, and it's it's generally not a linear arc. So, it's it's not going to be like things start here and just go straight up and to the right and end up in a good place for something like that. It's usually ups and downs. The classic sort of story arcs essentially, you know, act one, act two, act three. You have an initial rise in act two, full back in act initial rise in act one, full down in act two, um back in in act three with um you know happy ending if it's a comedy or a sad ending if it's a drama. If you look at President Trump's uh you know story, it's more interesting that he lost this the intermediate term and then won you know his second term after that. >> Just like the story arc initially up then down then resurgent resurgent again. If if you went with my theory that the most interesting outcome is the most likely, then that was the most likely outcome. It was inevitable. >> What are you watching on TV right now? >> I am irony man. Something like that. I'm paraphrasing. >> >> Uh, what am I watching actually? Right now I'm watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the TV series Turtles in a Half Show, Total Power. Yeah. Uh, cuz uh, Little X wants to watch that. I I I'm watching things that the kids kids want to watch. Rewatched Dodgeball last night. >> It's a good movie. >> Yeah. If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball. >> If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball. >> What? Yeah. High motivation to dodge if somebody's loving reg. What song instantly puts you in a good mood? >> Uh, The Final Countdown by Europa. >> Heard that song a lot. Do you read the instructions or just wing it? >> What's the goal? >> Like if you're putting something together, do you read the instructions or do you wing it? >> If it's a simple thing, I'll wing it. If it's a complex thing, I'll look at the instructions. If you had to start from scratch today with only $1,000, what would you do? >> Well, I did I did originally come to uh North America with like I don't know 2500 bucks Canadian, so I don't know, maybe two grand us. Um, one bag of books and one bag of clothes in Montreal at age 17. So that is how I started out. Um, at this point I have a lot of knowledge. A lot of things would have to go wrong for that to be the case. It's like, am I just emerging from prison perhaps with a stipend? All my company's been confiscated. I mean, it would take Armageddon, which hopefully that doesn't happen. Um, like Ragnarok next level and I lost. >> Yeah. >> What the hell? Um, >> it's bad hand. I I mean it's impossible for me for someone to have that amount of know all the knowledge that I have and then be um dropped down to a low resource amount because the reality is that either something truly catastrophic has happened like civilization has melted um or I will be able to ask people to just give me money um and with the promise that I will have a high return which what I'm able to do right now. >> Yeah. >> Like if you give me a dollar, you will get back much more than a dollar. >> Yes. >> Um so this is it's it's somewhat of an impossible dichotomy because civilization would have had to have destroyed or something. Um in which case $1,000 is not going to solve your problems. you know, you can't do much with a if you're if you're wandering around radioactive craters, uh, and you're in like, you know, fallout or whatever, uh, then, uh, $1,000 is not going to solve anything. And if civil civilization hasn't melted, then probably just talk people into giving me money, which I've done before. >> >> If you weren't running your companies, what random job would you enjoy doing the most? >> I don't know if that's all that random, but I'd like probably write video games or something like that. I I did that at one point. I like solving problems, so I like building things. I built a lot of things. Like a lot. What do you eat in a typical day? >> Well, these days I start off with a breakfast of steak and eggs and coffee. And then dinner tends to vary. I usually don't have lunch. Um or if I do something very small. And then dinner, depending on whether it's social or not, um will vary in cuisine. I like a wide range of cuisine. >> What's your favorite food? Um, American food is my favorite food. >> Like pizza or a cheeseburger? Like >> Yeah, the cheeseburger is probably the If I had to say like there's only one thing you can ever have for the rest of time, which admittedly would be a bit monotonous, but it would probably be a cheeseburger. Um, because cheeseburgers are amazing. It's a genius invention. Um, I'll tell you a funny story about when um I was living in LA and I took my older boys out for lunch uh to Sugarfish, which is a very um kind of uptight sushi restaurant. Um, in fact, it's at at at the on the menu of of [snorts] the restaurant, it says, "Do not ask for soy sauce." Uh because the chef has put the right amount of choy soy sauce and you can't have anymore. And if the chef doesn't think you chef soy sauce, you can't have soy sauce. That's what it says on the menu basically. Um so like extremely strict um sushi restaurant. And so the waiter is going around asking everyone what they want. And then it comes to Saxon and Saxon says, "I'll have a cheeseburger. >> >> And the waiter's like, takes a moment for the waiter to recover because no one's ever asked for a cheeseburger at this, you know, very strict sushi restaurant. Um, took him like a 30 seconds to realize he just been asked for a cheeseburger because you're not even allowed to ask for soy sauce. So, um, so then when he finally recovered, he said, "We don't have cheeseburgers." >> >> And Saxon Saxon goes at the top of his voice, "What?" Like, "What kind of restaurant doesn't have cheeseburgers?" I says, "Fine, I'll have a hamburger." I don't know what you got against dairy, but >> yeah, I don't have hamburgers either. >> Did he stay for the rest of the meal? >> Yeah, but he was nonplusted. I was like, I can't believe um this place doesn't have cheeseburgers. So So yeah, I mean I like I guess I like barbecue, which is good because I'm here in Austin. Um I mean if it's if it's if it's a hot cuisine, I like French food as well, but not every day in once in a while. >> If your friends described you in one emoji, what's the emoji? >> I guess the emoji I use the most, which is the laughing emoji. All right. And we close on this question every episode. If you could host a dinner party with three people, dead or alive, who's coming to dinner, and what are you eating? >> Maybe Shakespeare, Ben Franklin, Nicola Tesla. Um, I there's there's actually a lot of people I'd like to I would have liked to talk to and we'll we'll eat, I guess, whatever they'd like. Um, I think if if if you're going to if this is a once in a-lifetime thing, I think you'd want to have some epic, you know, 12 course meal or something like that >> at least. >> Yeah. But some Yeah. You want to go all out for that dinner? I think you're probably not going to serve cheeseburgers unless they want it. >> Yeah. >> Maybe one of the courses could be like a tiny cheeseburger. Those don't taste as good as the big ones, though. >> No, but they could. It's just they don't try. There's nothing. You could make a tiny cheeseburger taste just as good as a big cheeseburger >> if you try it. >> Have you ever had a tiny cheeseburger that actually tastes good? >> Rare, but yes. >> Okay. >> 1% of the time. >> Fair. >> But usually it's too much bread and it's dry. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> And then like there's not enough meat in proportion to the bread. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> But could you make a tiny cheeseburger that's good? Of course. Like you're not breaking, you're not like get any Nobel Prize with this. You know, you can definitely make a tiny cheeseburger. It's like physically possible. I'm saying it's just rare. >> Thank you for doing this. >> You're welcome. >> Thanks for watching this week's episode of the Katie Miller podcast. We'll see you next week, Tuesday, 6 p.m.